How Revnets Are Rewriting the Rules of Onchain Businesses With Jango

This week we sat down with Jango, the creator behind Juicebox, to dive deep into the world of revnets—a novel approach to tokenizing business models and aligning incentives across builders, investors, and customers in Web3.

We explore the shortcomings of traditional business models and typical tokens, and how the revenant model turns the tables by making your customers true stakeholders in your success. You'll hear about the origins of Juicebox, the journey from experiment to essential DAO fundraising tool, and how Jango's obsession with programmable business models led to a whole new way of thinking about revenue, loyalty, and transparency on-chain.

If you’ve ever wondered how a modern on-chain business can sustain itself, align all parties, and drive collaborative growth, this conversation is for you. Jango unpacks how revnets work—think automatic, immutable, revenue-backed tokens—and shares practical examples, including his own experiences launching projects like the Banny PFP collection. With insights into decentralized governance, the future of open-source funding.

00:00 Discussing Juicebox's Accidental Origins

10:00 Token Fundraising and Governance Challenges

13:57 Token Incentives and Revenue Growth

20:22 Towards Inclusive Consumer Engagement

23:16 Decentralized Business Funding Evolution

29:38 Revnets: Launching Omni-Chain Tokens

34:47 Banny Revnet: DAO Cartoon Shopping Experience

44:26 Perpetual Halvening and Revenue Shares

45:33 Revenue Redistribution Strategy Evaluation

54:32 Token Loan Network Cashout Dynamics

58:45 Revnet Platforms and Tokenization

01:03:55 Debate on Token Structure

01:07:01 Exploring Tech Trade-offs

Transcript

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Your customers want to rep you because they have a token backed by your revenue. You want to scale because you're taking out loans against your future cash flow. So you have that incentive. Welcome back to another episode of behind the Screen with Gaho, the podcast where we unravel the untold stories of the best on chain builders and creators. I'm your host, Gramajo, an avid crypto enthusiast that's been in the space since 2012. All right, so today we're covering a pretty beefy topic, but one that I think is super interesting. So I've gone down the rabbit hole of revenants. It's really like reimagining tokens overall and on chain businesses. Yeah. So in today's open Internet, you know, traditional business models often lead to misaligned incentives, value extraction. So that's like your typical token. And then usually open source projects are super reliant on donations. They struggle with enforcing revenue. And really just revenue as a whole is an issue in Web3. And so with the Revenant model, basically your customers can become investors, investors can be investors, everyone could be treated like the same. And that's what revenants is. It's basically pretty groundbreaking technology that tokenizes financial structures. And they're designed to really align everyone involved, from builders to the customers to investors. Really anyone that's participating in your specific revenue or community. They create openly accounted financial networks. So think of like Bitcoin, like everyone knows the rules, everyone's kind of playing their own game based on those rules. The rules can't really change. It's all immutable. So as the network is growing, everyone is hopefully their value is growing as well. It fosters collaborative, open communication, sustainable growth. And this is kind of where I see be the future of financial transparency and kind of community driven growth. I think revenants can play a really big role in this. So yeah, let's dive in, do a quick intro of who's Django? Feel free to dox as much as you as you like. And when did you get into Web three? Sure thing. Leah, long time coming. Super glad to be here talking to you anytime, folks. Give a little opportunity and patience and bandwidth to dive into the revenant puzzle. I always find it productive because you can kind of start poking at various aspects and things and kind of. I learn as doing too. I started working on Juicebox in 2020 and it was kind of a happy accident. I was really curious about how to program business models in more interesting ways and was working with banking APIs at the time and then was living with someone who was working at Coinbase, which kind of gave me the crypto exposure, exposure more from the speculative side and realized quickly in defy summer reading some of these lending contracts that this is the way I need to be thinking about and expressing a lot of the, the ideas and concerns that I, that I had with regard to business models and started writing Juice Box with a bunch of friends, doing so in the way that I enjoy doing it, which is in the open and kind of collaborating with and supporting those who came in and wanting to contribute. And then a lot of those ideas turned the main use cases into fundraising, a fundraising platform to kind of take in funds and issue a treasury backed token and have been continuing that like yes, ending that journey since I'm still very much drawn to the programmable business model concept. And now through the lens of these past few years of, of being in, in crypto and seeing a lot of these experiments show up and yeah, super glad to be here. Been, you know, working with, had the chance to work with some great people along the way and excited to meet you and continue that, that journey. Yeah, no, I've heard, I've heard a lot about you from Nouns. Like a lot of people had a lot of positive things to say to say about you and definitely I think the best way I can like summarize it for myself while I was doing the research was Juice Box is super interesting to me and like, I think we have a couple tools kind of like, you know, like we have the tooling around daos is getting better and better and Juicebox is still proving the test of time, I would say. And you've also raised for some of the biggest DAOs that were trying to be formed at one point with Constitution, Dao and a couple other pretty crazy ideas out there. So yeah, definitely. I don't know if you were the one that built the V1 or you're the main dev for the building of juiced out, but if you are, definitely very impressive stuff to say the least. Thank you. Yeah, it's been really fun to build and even more fun kind of watching what folks want to do with it. Stressful at times for sure. Yeah, that's part of it. Yeah, I'm sure. But yeah, I mean spending a lot of time architecting, building, testing, and then when it's in the wild, you just have to trust that, like trust your work and just go for it and not hold back very much but then kind of go into the next phase of research to support the Next generation types of applications and platforms and businesses. And you know, there's some things you can control and some things you can't. It's kind of. But it's, it's, it's the, the general problem of tokenizing money. And what does that mean in a world where, you know, I think we've come off a lot of like slop coin type things where, you know, there's meaningful attention and activity. But what does it really mean underneath the hood? I think that that really draws me in and Juice Box has been such a great playground to experiment with these models and continues to be that and now more explicitly through the lens of revenants as a specific type of juice box. But yeah, it's one of many possible types of token experiments. Yeah, it's so funny because I think a lot of people, if you were like, hey, I created a token launchpad, a lot of sense of it's another one, you know, like, how is this one different from the other one and all that. But yours is actually honestly, like revenants is very truly, really different from another token launch pad. I think from the outside, if you don't spend much time researching it with the amount of thought that you've put into it, which is evident based on that memo that you published, that there's a lot of thought into it. It's not just like, hey, we're just building another launch pad for founders or for revenue generating businesses. And you know, the only difference is like the, maybe the percentage of the split of the fees or something like that. Like that's the only differentiator. Maybe branding or marketing, you know, like marketing tends to be like a really, it's actually advantageous or an edge for sure in web3 if you have really good work, like a good marketing arm. But yours is actually legit. It's actually very different. There's very few token launch pads out there that are really experimenting with new things. I would say that it's like the closest thing I could think of for me personally in terms of trying new things would be on the Solana side of things with Metadao, like in their token launchpad. Now, now that they're experimenting with that and how it leads to a dao. I know it's a little different because we were getting into it where I was like. And we could dive into the example that I have in mind because I learned by example. Sure. Yeah. So I've tried to start a Web3 golfing brand, right. Like merchandise. And sometimes I'm like, ah, like some of these things should be like just like a dao. And then I know we were going back and forth, you're like oh, maybe Juicebox actually might be better if you're like want more dao tooling. And then the other aspect of it, like the revenue sharing aspect of. It's really nice that it's like automatic within the revenants, like UI and that experience. And so it might make sense more in that sense. So anyways, what is revenants? How is it different from any other token launch pad? You know, like it, it really is. But that's like the lead up that I'll give to everyone is that it really is actually different and we could. Try to play with different examples along the way because I also benefit from like I, I enjoy thinking about these things in a more concrete thing because it can be very abstract otherwise. Yeah, the way I think about it is most fundraises or kind of token plays over the past few years has been, you know, money comes in from some dimension. Sometimes it's VCS and some backdoor agreement for to create liquidity or sometimes it's in the juice box case and the like vanilla juice box case. The money goes into the pay terminal and then your project's tokens go out or you know, they get created and then airdropped and then the money that comes in, like the ETH or the USDC that comes in just gets paid out to the team to operate with. And now you have tokens that are in existence that have some, have some relationship to the project. Oftentimes that's been through governance. This idea of like the treasury exists in the box and you have tokens that get to say when the money can leave the box to be paid to pay out certain people or whatever. And it's, it's sometimes feels like a charade of decentralization because the governance is really especially a governance that's, that's tradable, that's easy to kind of manipulate financially. It's still kind of power aggregating there. And then the money that is fundraised is, is always at risk. And the money that's in there doesn't really back the value of the tokens. It's just kind of this, this governance relationship or no governance relationship. And the tokens are just air and a meme kind of a market energy. And then the money still is, is being used to kind of operate with a revenet flips that on its head a bit. So you have the money that comes in from fundraises or from revenues. For instance, in the merchandising example, let's say you sell. Give me an example of something you sell. T shirts. T shirts, great. So let's say you're selling a $30 t shirt. Normally you would think of that sale as like, all right, here's a shirt. And then the $30 goes into my pocket, into my bank, and to kind of my accounts receivable, whatever you want to call it. And the revenant sends the money, $30 goes into the revenant, which is a box smart contract. And when the money hits the box, it's going to generate tokens. So it's going to tokenize that revenue. It's going to split those tokens at a, at a percent that you decide ahead of time. Let's just say for the sake of, like the simplest example, you're going to split the tokens 100% to yourself. So the money goes into the box and you generates tokens and they all go to you. That's essentially the model of like the $30 going directly into your pocket, right? Yeah. Revenue's in the box. You generate all the tokens for yourself. The only way to access the money in the box is to cash out your tokens and then access the funds in return. Now if you start to widen that split, let's say it's at 90% of the tokens issued go to you, and then 10% get issued back to the payer. Then all of a sudden you've created the system where the $30 goes into this box, you keep the majority of the tokens that are an option against that revenue, 90% of it, and then 10% you're starting to distribute to your customers and those who are paying you more. So tokens get issued at the rate of money coming in. And then now you've kind of created this loyalty points system that's immediately being distributed to your most loyal customers, to your biggest spenders, biggest investors, and you as the, the operating team and your customers all have the same token and you're relating to the revenue in the box in the same way. So you as a builder have a choice to make. All right, do you want to access underlying funds now and cash out your tokens now, or do you want to hold on and build more revenue into the box, which the token issuance can decrease over time such that you have incentive to kind of try to push the network towards growth over time and you want to benefit from, from, from that growth. So that gives you the Builder instead of receiving the $30 and immediately having access to it as well as a percentage of tokens, it gives you the option. So you have tokens and you have the option to access underlying revenue or hold the tokens and kind of participate in the project's growth. And then there's some follow on incentives because of this relationship between the tokens and the fact that they're backed by the revenue that you can take out loans against your future cash flow. Kind of self contained within the revenant structure which gives you operating capital as well as exposure to your future revenue streams as well as distributing loyalty points that accrue in value to your most loyal customers and has this pretty productive dynamic where your customers want to rep you because they have a token backed by your revenue you want to scale because you're taking out loans against your future cash flow. So you have that incentive. And then investors also have easy due diligence since you know they're putting in potentially millions of dollars and there's no rug risk. Right. It's very clear what that money goes. And then I think the most important kicker for revenants is that it's deterministic. You set rules upfront when you deploy your revenant. And the few rules you set are at what pace will your issuance decrease over time? So let's say you're issuing a thousand of your token per one USDC received and then every 30 days it's going to decrease by let's say 20%. So then next month it's 800 of your token per USDC received, on and on and on. Yeah. And then what percentage of that is split to yourself and what percent goes to the payer into the revenet. And that's all decided up front. So at that point it kind of just runs like bitcoin where you know, there's no governance, there's no burden of management. Everyone can play the rules as, as they're, they're, they're described and the numbers, you know, matter insofar as it paces how your project evolves over time. But it doesn't really matter about the micro specifics, similarly to how bitcoin, you know, 21 million is just a number happenings every so and so number of blocks. It's just a number. The specifics don't really matter. What matters is that they exist and are enforced and we can each play our version of our game relative to it. Yeah. And so I believe, you know, less governance is good and, and revenue backed tokens are Good to actually promote growth and sustain open source. Because open source has a pretty hard time monetizing if we're not, if we're not being very specific about how we're treating revenues in that system. Because any extractive energy is going to just be forked and removed. Um, so how do you build revenue systems that actually sustain an open network of, of code and of, of people? I think that's what I liked about like Juice, like going back to juiced out a little bit. Since I haven't really, I haven't launched a revenue or anything. But just like when I was looking at juicedao when you gave me that insight, like, hey, maybe you want to go to juiced out. I like that the fees are like upfront and transparent because I mean it should be like you said, you know, like, I don't, I'm, I'm at the stage where like, I don't wanna, I wanna see people succeed. And it's almost better that you guys like, not you, but like just the collective view of developers, like kind of figure out what sustainable looks like early on, you know, Like, I think it's almost like worse sometimes maybe, I don't know, depends. Some MBA could argue to me the, the difference but like, you know, like it being like, hey, it's open source, it's, it's free. Then five years down the line you're like, actually jk, it's, we're gonna roll back certain features and make them premium. Like Strava is doing this. I don't know, like it, it hurts a little bit more or it just feels a little sheisty or shady I would say. And versus like, hey, you just tell me like right up front, you know, it's like, you know, 2% of X going forward and maybe there's like tiers based on how much like revenue you're like putting in it or whatever. It's just better for me. Like, it gives me more confidence that like, hey, you know, if this thing really works, you know, it works for you, works for me and you guys are still around and you know, projects just die constantly in the space. Yeah, same page. I mean, and we, we're always dogfooding our tools to structure our own projects because I think like this is the ethos we, we believe in. These are the dependencies you want to create with certain projects. Things are expensive to, to make. You know, our time is valuable. We need to really, you know, be deliberate about the things where we're depending our like, you know, the dependencies that we create for our projects. And I think, yeah, you're right. The worst is when someone says something is free or cheap and then later has full leverage to then move that around on a, you know, based on someone's decision, which may not even be the people who were involved in the beginning of a project, might be more of a business oriented Persona later on. So I'm a big believer in revenue being revenue forward, but just having it fixed in place and it can't change. So you can't, we can't reduce the two point, the 2.5% fee. You can't increase it and the fee goes into a network as opposed to into someone's pocket. Yeah, yeah. So it gives you a little confidence that like, okay, I am part of this network by paying the fee. Similar to, you know, imagine if every month that you pay a Netflix bill, you get some Netflix token that's correlated to that fee that you're paying, the revenue they're making and correlated to kind of the, your journey alongside that company over time. And as it scales, I think that would be a better fee that most folks would kind of evaluate our current state of market, of capitalism, of consumerism and feel kind of more a part of it, feel a sense of belonging in that system as opposed to a system where I think like there's consumers on one side and there's the back door kind of stock model on the other side and then a bunch of private things in between that no one has access to or clarity behind. But at the same time, it's not always easy. It's not always easy to find sustainability. Like you know, fundraising is hard because we're fundraising using our own systems and investors tend to prefer their tried and true systems. It takes a while to develop new standards, but we're making good progress and the folks we get to work with I think are ahead of the curve. And as long as there's some forward momentum there, I'm confident that eventually it'll, it'll, it'll catch on and then it'll be like super viral and useful. Once folks can look at a revenant and easily understand how it works, similar to how they can the pump Fun or a clank token or kind of these, these more one button, one click systems. Yeah, I wanted to double click on something real quick that you said earlier about like less governance, just more on the revenue like side. Is that, is that your thought? Like what is your thought on daos then? Since you, since you started juice box down and which helps people Set up daos and all that. Like has your opinion changed on, on daos overall or, or is that just like. Yeah, I think. Well, a dow means a bunch of things, a token means a bunch of things. Um, to like the, the way Juicebox Dao has always worked is it is Project ID number one on the juice box protocol. It takes a 2.5% fee of any outbound fund from any project into it and it issues JBX out when it receives fees. And that JBX governs the money in, in the tank. So that was our take on daos. It's very much of the Cthos I've been talking about. But JuiceBoxDao, it still manages that project and it can make changes according to its governance schedule. So it's not a revenant in that it's, it's not fixed forever. And the money that comes in, JBX holders can decide, okay, let's pay out these developers, let's play out these, these, these work orders to actually do, do certain things. And the current state of things is we've used based on basically all of the money that has been contributed to Juice Box Dower paid in fees and we have a bunch of JBX outstanding amongst community, amongst builders and stuff like that. And I think we, we managed to use the funds really productively to get to certain engineering outcomes and product outcomes. But we also learned a lot about, you know, our system of, you know, the energy we spend governing the systems of fragility. There's, there's a bunch of things that I think we could have done better that I think we were taking into this next, this next phase of trying to run businesses on chain and helping folks create platforms so that we have more on chain like business finance, entrepreneurial finance. And I think my current take with revenants is no one wants to govern a long tail of small treasuries. I think it's more effective to have small executive teams that are working alongside of a broader network to grow a revenue base that benefits the network such that the network is encouraged to work for itself over time. There might be governance exercises therein, but it's not like, I don't think, I don't think we need to be. I don't think every business needs like a governance flow where its customers are helping govern things. I think that's not what customers want, that's not what entrepreneurs want. I think, I think you just need to have the right incentives that encourage a high ratio of like, you know, like reduce wasteful Spending and increase revenue growth. If you can create that set of incentives that allows a team to work, you know, towards that end, allows customers to work towards that end, then you have a system where like, revenue is treated productively and customers want to pay it. And builders are making good decisions of like, okay, if we are to spend, how might we spend in a way that gives us the best chance of driving further growth as opposed to, you know, succumbing to the narrative of the day as to like, you know, how they should be spending their money or how should they should be treating certain bits of the ecosystem. I don't know. I think like, there's. We DAOs in their pure governance form aren't necessarily automatically productive, but it means a thousand things. A token means, can mean anything you program it to mean. So a revenant is a dao in the sense that it is decentralized. It is far more autonomous than a governance schema. And I guess it's an organization. But JuiceBoxDao is gonna continue existing and like Juice BoxDao's goal as an, as a capital allocator is to, is to accrue is to basically create a book of assets of really valuable assets. And we think revenants give us like, reliable returns. So if we're looking at a project to invest in or to give a grant to that furthers kind of the juice box ecosystem, we would rather that project model themselves as a revenue. So when we put money in there, we have a token and we can track with that token's like in our book of assets, we know exactly how that token works and we can help that project grow deliberately and not just in a kind of narrative sense where we're just hyping it or whatever. Like we can actually help drive, drive growth and track that progress. And that's cool for juiceboxdao to kind of play that role of like, being a being in the position of knowing the information and how this stuff works and trying to lead by example of allocating to great people and great teams and great, like, ideas that fit this mold and understand kind of this perspective on how this upcoming online economy might function. Yeah, kind of going back to leading by example. And I see you're wearing the banana hat too. What was the premise like? Also shouts ETH limo. I got a ETH Limo shirt on. Oh, I love that. I was actually just thinking about how I need to set up my blog post into ETH Limo. Yes, Literally today I was like thinking about it. I was like, man, I really should do that. I have like a list of like projects to do and. And that's one of them. And I'm like, I need to move this one up, I think, because, I don't know, I just feel super easy. I could. Yeah, I can. I'll. Yeah, you could do it in five minutes. Yeah, it just feels like it's time, you know, I was like, I think it's time. Yeah. So going back to like leading by example. So was the, I guess it's almost like a two part question. It's. It was like, what's. Why now? Why now did you launch Revenants? And then the second thing was kind of like, why the Banana PFP project? Is that more like a meta on, like, hey, back in 2021 we were kind of just launching PFP projects and we've seen a lot of them go by the wayside and you're like, I want to show you what a new version of the PFP project could look like. You know, like, and here's this banana. Like, I forget the name of the banana. Banana. I forget the name of. Yeah, yeah. So like, what do you think led you to get to this point? Like the culmination of like why Revenants Now? And also why the Banana like PFP project? So I feel like a lot of our take on the, the timing of things is a little less market driven and just the consequence of that's when the obvious next thing to build has taken shape and we've done all the research, implementation, testing and then here we are. Why Revenants now is. So the prereqs to revenants were Juicebox V4, which is Omni chain. So it's a, it's juice box that runs on all EVM chains. So when you deploy a project you, you don't have to choose which chain you're on, like which token, which chain you're going to launch your token on. You can just kind of checkbox style be like, I want to be on mainnet base Arbitrum Optimism. You can deploy your project and then anyone can pay you on any of those chains and then you're going to issue your one unified token for your project to people wherever they paid you. So if they paid you an Arbitrum, that's where they're going to get your token, main, et cetera. Then they can bridge their tokens and then kind of the revenue gets sloshed around underneath. And the reason there is because, you know, if you're fundraising or if you're a business you don't care where your customers pay you. You just want to receive revenues and receive funds. But you do want a unified network, unified token network. So you don't need to have an off chain entity that's intermediating between all of these chains. Right. Which happens a lot now is great. I'm running my business on four different chains. I'm getting revenue on all those chains. Well, I'm kind of extracting that revenue into my multi sig, into my bank and then doing some retroactive token dance to kind of figure out how to involve my community in the progress. Whereas Juicebox kind of has that automated function right where you have a treasury backed token, Omnichain, you don't need that off chain entity. And revenants make that flow particularly nice because you deploy it once and you never make changes again. So they can all kind of be in sync. All the rules can kind of be in sync across chains. And then we have a bunch of projects ourselves that are revenue. You know, we, we like to build things like, like Juice Box itself takes a, a revenue cut into what was before the JBX token. And on V4 since it is Omnichain, we couldn't just point revenues into jbx. We needed to point revenues into a different structure. And then we have other projects that take fees and just thought experiment of like how might we organize this business model such that we are, we like it as builders, we like it as investors, and we like it as users. Right. So really kind of trying to fit the model that, that, that solves our problems. And then Revenant started to kind of be. Be schemed with different sets of words. The long tail of finding the right words and the right stories to tell ourselves and then tell the world of how this stuff works took years. But it's really just solving a need for ourselves and understanding that okay, it's easy to slap Juice Box on various EVM chains, but then you create problems of like fee. Someone paying a fee on Arbitrum is going into a different treasury than someone paying a fee on mainnet. And those are both token issuing treasuries. But those tokens aren't correlated. So you create kind of a mess. And you need to first take a step back. Keep juicebox just on mainnet. Don't touch L2s for like way too long. Everyone's like, L2 is the big meta. But we're like mainnet is the only thing that we can do soundly currently while then taking the time to figure out how to do Omnichain projects, which is the prereq for us to then build our business and offer it to folks. And then revenants being the answer to we don't want to open up more governance burdens. One mothership governance body is great, and then it just needs to govern a bunch of revenue tokens that it believes in. So kind of a bunch of just following these strings of thoughts of what we need for our own projects to be, uh. It's hard to know what. What it's like, what it's not like to be successful because we don't. We can't really control that outcome. But to be successful, insofar as we can, we feel like we're building on solid rock. And then we can focus on the things we want to focus on, which tend to be the more creative aspects of things. And then Bani as a project is very much just a. It's pulling off the shelf. A project that's been lingering in Juicebox for a while. Banny has been the symbol of Juicebox since the early days. Sage drew Banny and put Banny on the. On Juicebox money home screen on day one. So when ConstitutionDao, Moondao, SharkDao, a bunch of these early projects were coming up, Banny was like front and center. And it was on the share link and kind of grew into a bunch of lore within the community. And then we had this art collection that allows that was just kind of the bananas and then various outfits. And then in thinking about how we might pull that off the shelf and use it as like a canonical example of how revenants work, it just made sense to really do the project correctly, make it a shopping experience. And then we're going to continue doing drops, kind of selling outfits. And it's a cartoon, obviously, but the funds from the sales go into the Ban Revnet. So it's a great part of my demo when I'm showing folks or folks who are curious about using revenants, but it's hard to visualize. It's like, great, let's go to retail. Bannie Eth sucks. All of a sudden we have a little bit of comedic relief. You get a sense for who we are and our taste for culture and things. And we can kind of just click around and see where the money goes. You can see that when you buy something, you get Ban tokens as a customer. You can see that that gives you like, real value that's backed by real value of the network. And it's usually it helps us get to that aha moment from our folks. And then obviously it's accompanied by hey, if you read between the lines you can maybe imagine how like a real world commerce system works with revenants behind the scenes. But on the, you know, I think we're most familiar in the digital space with just treating it as, as PFPs and kind of brand building. But yeah, Benny is, Benny's important. Yeah, no, I love it. Yeah, I think it took me a hot because like you know, I, I read the memo. It's funny, like I don't know how I came upon it. I think it was actually through Rocket man to be quite honest. And I think he was looking at it for Flows and I saw that he posted the memo of what a revenant is. And I remember I clicked on it thinking it would be a casual 2 minute read. Drink it while I'm drinking an espresso. And I'm scrolling and I was like oh, I gotta pause and I gotta come back to this when I have time. So I did that. So I did that like within like a week or two. And I was like, okay, I still like wasn't clicking for me. And I think you're right. Like I went to, I just went to like the website and I remember seeing the Banana PFP and I was like oh, it started clicking, you know, like you said like. And I was like, I could see, I could see why Rocketman's excited about this. I could see, didn't see like many people just understood it really like the, the potential it had. Yeah, it's hard. Exactly. It's very hard. It's, it's, it's different. And I think the hardest bit is when you don't have examples and you're not really concerned with like a, a marketing, like a preordained marketing budget to kind of splash around. Like you're, you're like all the economics of how we build stuff is really by. It's according to the systems that we build. So it's, it's, it doesn't really incentivize kind of having these, these kind of big splashy marketing things. So it takes time. But building a canonical example and having that be like a quick thing to show is I think has been really helpful. But we really do need more content, we need more explainers. I think as we have new examples like Flows and some other upcoming platforms that I'm really excited about, those will be great to talk about and to kind of show diagrams for. So I think we're in early days and any help we get to try to tell the story, it's. It's helpful because I don't think, you know, folks like me or other folks have been really deep in how this works. So the stuff behind the scenes are really well equipped to meet people where they are quite yet. But I think we're pretty good at taking folks who are maybe a little bit more intimate with their curiosity kind of through various details, examples. But things like Banny and Shouts Perry for building that website. It's gorgeous sage for the outfits we're about to do drop two. So we have 20 new outfits coming out. And so it's always like a fun thing. And I work on are like my. My homies. So it's like working with your friends on fun, fun side projects that play into the grand scheme of things. Yeah, exactly. Is. Is. Is like what it's all about. All right, let's take a quick break. Hope you're enjoying this episode. This episode was made possible with the support of my premium subscribers, Seattle Dog MC Lionels, Brennan and Humpty. If you'd like to receive exclusive drops access to token gated content, make sure to subscribe to my hypersub. You can also subscribe via Patreon or substack. Try to keep it pretty accessible. I also will be going to Mountain Dao, which is a Solana builder conference. So I'll be bringing a lot of like, behind the scenes content for you for anyone that's not a premium subscriber. And I'll also be going to DevConnect this year as well. So lots to come in terms of premium subscribers. And we're still having fun here on chain. All right, let's get back to it. Yeah, I actually wanted to run an example by you, and it's like fresh off the press. I figured I would get your take on this because it's kind of like, you know, it's like when you. When you want a car, you just see that car now, like, that's all you see out in the world. It's like when I found out about Futarchy, every time I would see something, I'm like, man, like food target can solve that. Like, I don't understand why we're not using that. So when I found out about revenants. Now whenever I start seeing certain scenarios, I'm like, huh? Like, couldn't that be a revenant? Like, that sounds like it would be better as a revenant. So I to want, want to see. I want to get your Take on this. I'm going to share my screen with you. Okay. And this will be a good one for, for the farcaster people, since I know you don't spend too much time on this. So Debbie, who works over at Privy and also has written a book. Let me know if you could see that. Can you. Can you plus, like zoom in a little bit? Yeah. Got you. Nice. Perfect. So she, she had a, like a statement about like having the feminine urge to like, found another company and also it being a sports bar. And she was talking about like, once she breaks even so like the initial investment is done, then essentially sharing back revenue with the people that like, of the profits. And I was just like, okay, isn't this just a revenant? Like, is this a use case that you would recommend? Yeah. Yes. Like you, you could. All right, so what this makes me. Think of is because I guess a crowdfund would work. I think what gets me is like now she's also talking about having like, you know, part of the profits going back to the people that gave to the crowdfund. Mm. Yeah. So there's. There's two bits of this one. There's. First is the getting is raising funds to make the initial purchase. Yeah. And second is the, the revenue. The kind of revenue recycling exercise correctly grow a customer base and potentially expand from there. You could solve them both by. I think a fun way to do this would be you set a. A initial so you make a revenant. Let's call it a name. Bushwick Sports Bar Budget. So bsb. That's not. Yeah, that's. That's a. It's a decent acronym. So you make the, the BSB revenant on stage one. Let's say you issue a million BSB per one ETH that comes in and you're just going to kind of keep that window open for let's say like three months. Anyone can contribute and you get the same deal. And the point is, during this three months, you want to really kind of cultivate that grassroots fundraise to make. Make the budget to actually make the purchase. Yeah. Afterwards, maybe we want to. Then. So once that stage one is over, once those three months have passed, then maybe you want, you want to decrease issuance to. So we started at a million BSP per ETH. Maybe we want to directly decrease it to like 250k BSB per E. So you're automatically the next dollar in. In this next phase is getting four times less BSP per ETH. So it kind of creates this, this first moment, that's more fundraising oriented. Yeah. And the second stage lasts forever. Let's just say it's, it's 250k BSB per ETH, decreasing at let's say like 50% every year. So every year another kind of halvening happens. Right. So we can kind of think of an early forex like phase and then afterwards happenings every year. And then you route revenues. So everyone who contributed to the fundraiser at first, maybe kind of the split of those tokens goes to majority to Debbie so she can finance the, the initial expense for, for getting the real estate and then the split thereafter is let's say 70% of tokens go to Debbie to kind of fund operations for every unit, for everything that they sell. Say you sell$10 Guinness or whatever you are, that $10 goes in the revenant, Debbie gets kind of 70% of those tokens and 30% goes to the, the purchaser. And you kind of continue this, this system of like it's not, it's not like a direct surplus jar, which I think is the, the point of the post is maybe a little simpler. It's more like, is like surplus is directly returned to like an initial customer, initial investor set. In this case, you would kind of consider your long tail of folks paying in with revenue or fund or chipping in over time as part of kind of the investor pool over time. But they're getting less BSB per eth. So you're kind of continuing this issuance cycle over time. But revenue is consistently going out to the fringes of the network to previous customers, previous investors and the like. The one, the one thing I will say though that that gives me pause on sticking a revenant on this at first is that there seems to be a pretty explicit kind of initial fail condition. Like if you don't raise enough money, maybe you want to unwind the business from the start or do you want to kind of issue refunds? Which makes me think maybe treating the first part of the fundraiser as just like a, a kind of a standalone thing and then later adding the revenant component to actually manage the revenue bit might, might give you a better exit condition in case things don't go according to plan. But yeah, the idea of every sale going into a revenet and every customer kind of repping your, your, your brand, your token, your, your loyalty point, I think, I think achieves what, what she's going for there. Like a community owned revenue stream. Yeah, because my, my initial concern was like you could strap on Regular really like any crowdfunding app that exists out there. But I figured the pain point would be the distribute the distribution of the, of the, of the revenue after the fact. You know, that's a lot of like administration burden on you essentially. You know, like that number exponentially gets bigger and crazier for you unless you start making some really hard decisions where you're like, you know, if you do less than X, like you get nothing or I don't know, you know, because essentially like if someone just, even if they give a dollar, you know someone's gonna want something because that's how you phrased it. And that could be a million people. And now you have to manage a million people and, and distributing funds and doing all that. And yeah, maybe software can do that for you or something. But I was like, day like crypto could make it a lot easier. And I think revenue in general is a, is a hot topic of how to manage revenue in crypto creative ways. I think the most common ways are like revenue sharing which is essentially a split of money coming in. You know, $10 comes in and then it immediately gets split. Five goes this way, five goes that way. Okay, that's pretty, pretty familiar. And crypto could just automate that split. Then there's the idea of dividends where you know, you have revenue accumulating and then that revenue is routed to various stakeholders over time. As you said, if you have a bunch of those that can be pretty arduous to send money to folks. It can be like legally pretty arduous too. Yeah, if you're kind of the, the fiduciary kind of responsible for managing those, those commitments. The revenant model, the way I consider it is, is token backed revenue. So it's neither of those first two. The revenue goes into the box and then tokens get emitted and they get split. And then it's up to every token holder to exercise their option whenever they want. The, the tokens are essentially an option on the revenue. So though, instead of sending the money to everybody, everyone with tokens can choose to exercise it and access underneath underlying capital whenever they want. And everyone's playing their own game. So it's far less management, far less kind of legal uncertainty or kind of based on the rules kind of of this past like corporate generation. And I think far more elegant from an incentives perspective since everyone's playing a longer term game where you're trying to cultivate more and more and oriented towards growth as opposed to just trying to extract. Yeah, definitely. I know for a Hot second. The, the legal brain in me was like. I was like, is this, is this even legal as a. As a US person? But yeah. No, I think you explained it. You explained it well. Yeah, I mean, that. Well, that's a great question and, you know, necessary question. And there's a lot of uncertainty, like unknowns, really, and the, the take that we have that I'm willing to defend, because I feel like we have kind of legal counsel as well, so maybe they'll kind of have other things to add here, But a revenant is a deterministic structure, kind of like a uniswap pool or like bitcoin. Like, once you've created one, it's just going to operate. Yeah. According to its rules. So again, is the onus on the deployer of the thing because, like, they're not really managing anything behind the scenes or, or. Or even kind of able to control anything afterwards. And then like, you as an individual or a company or organization can run like an llc, which is. Which is like a normal llc. It reports and has tax obligations kind of like any other company. And you engage the revenant just like any other token holder. So you're not doing any governing of the revenant's treasury. You're just engaging kind of with its financial kind of outcome just as a token holder, and you can isolate that component and report accordingly. Similarly to how companies relate to bitcoin. Right, right. Like, bitcoin's an engine. It's just kind of do its thing. But everyone who plays the bitcoin game is going to have various obligations based on how your jurisdiction interprets what bitcoin is. Yeah, no, once I found out that, like, it was essentially immutable, I was like, all right. That'S what you want. That's what. Yeah, that's. That's. That's like, yeah. Governance is a lot of risk. And it makes sense that folks are weary of scaling out poorly governed things that are worth billions of dollars. And a lot of folks are spending a lot of energy trying to make better governance systems and governance routines. But I'm a big fan of immutable immutability and, like, let devs do their dev stuff and let networks do their networking stuff and try to get it, like, get out the way. Yeah, I think that's what made, like, when you go try and set up, like I did go try to look at how to, like, build a revenant, there was a lot of questions. I was like, oh, I didn't even think about some of These things like ahead of time. It made me think it. And luckily you had some like, you know, best advice or like, you know, like most projects should do X, Y and Z so you don't get like the, the what is it? Like choice dilemma or you know, you don't get cold feet like, you know. So I appreciate that. Takes time. It's a long sales process. So like it's a bunch of, you really have to understand what you want. And you know, I, I tend to work with folks over months to try to just ping ideas around, try to write right priorities of, you know, and trade offs to certain decisions. So you know, some people are, are very confident online and go and click buttons and wing it and go like shouts Rocketman. He just builds and he goes and he. And I, I really appreciate folks that, that have that energy. But then some folks, you know, they're running, they're debating running their business on this new type of tokenized system and it takes a while to really develop that conviction, but which is healthy too. Like there's no right or wrong way to do that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Someone in the chat named Maria was asking if there was a cost to creating a revenant. There. There's no cost to creating a revenant. So when you create the revenant, it's open, you take in funds. There's no cost to take in funds. It's just a juice box project under the hood. Yeah. So and juice box charges a 2.5% fee when funds leave treasury. The only time funds leave the treasury in a revenet sense is when you cash out tokens. Yeah. Or when you take out a loan against your tokens. And in those, both those circumstances, a revenet can be configured with a cash out tax that the network itself is going to benefit when someone cashes out. Meaning if both you and I are participants in, in a particular revenet, so we both have 10 tokens. If I cash out first, I'm leaving a little bit on the table for the rest of the network. So when you cash out next, they, you get a little bit more than I. So the network kind of accrues and it's kind of floor price over time. And the fee that kind of gets piped down to juicebox is 2.5% on top of that. So of the tokens you cash out and tokens you receive back, 2.5% go in and that goes into the Nano Revenant, which is Project ID number one on Juicebox v4. So you're also owning a piece of juice, Juice Box revenues as a whole as you pay, as you pay revenues today. So you know, let's say you pay $10 in fees when if you do a cash out of a certain kind of size, you're gonna get a nanotoken in return that might, you know, be immediately have like a three dollar rebate value or whatever. But let's say in two years time, Juice Box is now has a lot more traffic, a lot more activity. Maybe those nano that you got is now worth, you know,$20 or more. It's all kind of at a rate of, of how, how much traffic the ecosystem has grown into like, relative to its issuance cuts over time. Yeah, I think that's what I liked about it. Again, it's like the upfront like fees, you know, like it seems fine to me. Like, I think they're hard, I mean, yeah, like we, they're hard to. Right now we have more work to do to create great models for folks to base decisions off of great tools, great education documentation. We have folks who you know, enjoy doing this work in this pocket of the Internet because it's kind of, it's, it's, it's value aligned or they're particularly kind of familiar with this, with this kind of thought process. But you know, we need funds to pay for it. And I much prefer getting funds from customers than I do from kind of like investors that expect some, some outcome at the expense of customers. So it's just kind of, you know, meeting people where they are treating us all as like on the spectrum of builders of customers, of investors of our own, of our own tooling, but recognizing that money is just energy and we were just exchanging a form of energy that hopefully we're translating into safer tools, better tools and kind of reinvesting in ourselves. What do you think right now is like the ideal customer or example that you want to like tackle next to create a revnet? A few, there's a few revenants brewing that are about to get deployed. I got permission to tease them, so I'll go fourth here. The main thing currently is so Juice Box is a protocol and a lot of people think Juice Box as it is. Juicebox Money, the website Juice Box Money is a platform that exposes the Juice Box Protocol and it does so very elegantly. It's kind of does so just trying to acknowledge all of the bells and whistles it has at its disposal. There's a few other platforms that are building that basically take the Juice Box Protocol and expose it to very niche audiences. So there's a science platform called Inevitable Sciences that we're building that helps kind of frontier science projects fundraise and manage revenues, kind of their progress of the products that their research culminates in, and kind of other shippable intermediaries so excited for to help platforms be able to serve their audiences more specifically. Also, Artisan is kind of a platform that helps artists sell artifacts and tell their story and fundraise with match funding. That platform is also going to run as a revenant. Kind of like both of those fee models are going to be revenants and then the actual projects that are that run within those ecosystems on the science one, those are going to be revenants as well. We're still kind of in the nuance of kind of modeling exactly how it all works, but it's a likelihood that that platform is going to be like revenants all the way down. Artisan is going to be kind of revenant as the art tokens, like the core of the network that manages endowment funding and the like. And then each Artisan project is going to be a simple fundraiser because most artists kind of aren't really interested in the tokenomic optimization. They just want to receive funds and then do their craft. So there's two, and then there's another kind of early talks and other platforms that are more audience niche specific. So from my point of view, it's how can I kind of maintain a solid foundation, the protocol foundation, it's well documented, safe to use, and just help platform builders not have to reinvent the wheel in thinking about how to issue tokens, how to manage fundraisers, how to manage revenues for their audiences while also running a sustainable business model for themselves that, you know, allows them to go out and attract capital, attract, you know, in the case of sciences, like the best researchers in the world, while not kind of falling into the complaints of, you know, you know, I'm trying to do this really meaningful science thing, but why do we have to stick some silly token on top of it? It's like, well, let's, let's try to reach a tokenized conclusion. That feels serious. And, and you know, the more we study it, the more we poke it, the, the, the more convinced we are that this is a effective way to, to organize capital and to apply it in entrepreneurial contexts. Yeah, it's interesting that you bring up the. Because I know with flows, initially when I was trying to understand revenants, I thought it made sense to just do like Flows as one revnet. And that was it. Like it didn't go another layer down where there's another revenant underneath it. And it. I think you've worked with Rocketman enough. But yeah, flows like, you know, there was even like buckets within that. So there was like the content creator ones, which was. I was in that one. There's the software, like the noun software one. There was like the beach cleaners. There was like. His argument was like maybe it actually would be like a revenant at the bucket level and then even discussion going down a further level. So like you could do content creator bucket as a whole or even just me specifically like my specific project. So I was kind of like, I was like struggling with that for a bit where I was like, like, is it like revenants all the way down or is it, you know, like what you're saying with like the artisan one where it's just like, just one, you know. Yeah, it's a big, it's an open design space. And I think Rockamana and I have gone back and forth on the trade offs of nesting revenets. Meaning, you know, at the top layer you have eth in flows out and at the second layer you have flows in like athletes out. And the third layer of like, like athletes in, like, you know, nars out or something. Exactly is. It's like different. That's one option. And then kind of side by side of that you can have an option where it's like Ethan, flows out, Ethan, athletes out, Ethan, like whatever that kind of third layer is. And you know, we don't really have a lot of examples to point to like why something has worked in the past or isn't or might not be a good idea. So it's a bunch of theory in that case. But it's nice to talk to someone who kind of can conceptualize those trade offs and we can have like high bandwidth conversations even within that pretty abstract design space. And then at the end of the day, like have each other's back to be like, hey, if you believe this is the right way to do it, you know, we can technically put it together. It's just like the consequence might be, you know, you have to do something specific in the interface to kind of obscure some, some nuance, some detail, or you might run into a problem down the road trying to convince or explain something to an investor or to a curious potential customer or something. And I think they're all just hypothesis that the best thing you can do is just hang out with brilliant people who are hard headed and kind of are going to do their thing regardless and is willing to just try to solicit as much information on the table as possible before making a decision. And then once you decide, you go for it. You don't stick around twiddling your thumbs or, or debating is you just gotta try it and see, see what happens. No one 100% agreed. You know, like, it, I mean the way that I kind of like, I think where I settled on that whole debate once I finally made a decision was like, I kind of like the going down to those multiple levels just because it all goes back to like the main tree, I guess. Like it keeps going back. That was kind of where my brain was at and I think that's where I have like settled on. At first it just seemed like a fragmentation of. I think I was thinking about it more like from an ERC20, like just, you know, like, why would you launch. Like this is the issue I had with zora, like, why would you launch? Every single specific piece of content that I make is its own coin. When I'm like, really? It should be like, that's fine if you do it that way, but really, like, I want it to be like you're betting on me not specifically that one piece of content, you know, like, so when they finally pivoted recently to like creator token or whatever, I was like, oh yeah, that's, you know, whether, and if there's a bunch of like ERC 1155s or ERC 20s underneath it. If you could just swap between the overall, overall, like network, that's fine. And the network being like me, the content creator, that's okay. But when it wasn't like that, I was like, I had issues with just like every piece being its own. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a, there's a, there's a, like, there's a cohesion that's, that's part of this. And sometimes as, as engineers you kind of get lost in the code sauce. But the narrative cohesion, like the social cohesion really makes all the difference at the end of the day and not, I don't think we've nailed that at, you know, within the juice box ecosystem or revenants by any means yet. But I think we're making progress and I think the ZORA folks are too. And like, collectively we're, we're, we're, we're teetering through these different design spaces and excited to see how they continue to evolve. Yeah, I mean, I think it's also a really good, like, hats off to you that, like, it can support either model, you know, like that it is that flexible. Like you can go down 3, 4 levels of revenants or you could just feel like, nope, we're just going to stop at like the, the website, like artisan, and that's it. And you know, and it gets, it could do both. You know, I think that's. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. And starting at the most flexible kind of juice box, bare metal, and then working your way out to like, okay. If you, if you get nerve, a lot of people like, see, oh, revenants are deterministic. You can't change rules. And they're like nervous about it. They want more control. No problem. Let's go to the juice box layer. You can configure all the tools, it can act like a revenant, but you can kind of have, you know, the controls just in case and then you can change. But then you're going to try to make an argument to someone to pitch in. Maybe they feel uncomfortable with you having control. And so now you have this kind of trade off space. Yeah. And, and being able to kind of walk someone through that and actually at any point being like, oh, yes, that's technically possible, you can do it. There's nothing in the way. But why, why, why might you not want to do that? Or what are the trade offs? Energetically, I think that's a far more productive conversation than like, oh, this app does one thing, this protocol does one thing and one thing only. And if we move on from that one thing, we're going to deprecate that last thing. So we're always kind of like, have our single focus point. And it's like, it's hard to. It's easier to have, I think, a conversation around these nuances when anything is technically possible without opening up a big can of worms, of risk or of code. But there's certain reasons why we've concluded kind of our flagship set up to be like this. And it's hard to just say what those are and be like it is, because it is. And it's a lot easier to kind of start from where the person is with their own business journey or their own kind of intent, and then just bouncing ideas off or kind of when they present a certain idea, maybe calling attention to what that trade off might be or kind of how that might play out and then maybe adjusting conclusions along the way. And through those conversations, like, I always learn a bunch. So there's by no Means like a right way, like a one direction that those conversations tend toward. But yeah, like it's, it's awesome to run into folks like Rocketman who, Who get the seed of thought and can push you on. On a certain set of ideas. Yeah. And he's going forward, which I, which I love. Yeah. Yeah, he's a, he's a good guy. I've had him on the, on the podcast before and definitely one of my favorite people at the space. I have two more, just quick ones if, if you're. I know I've held you all right. I won't hold you too much longer. But kind of sticking a little bit to like the theory versus in real life. Is there anything else that's surprised you in general since going. Since launching or going live where. I don't know, maybe you obsessed up, spent a lot of time on, on some theory and then it hasn't happened in real life or anything in general, really. Yeah, that's a good question. I. There's so many things that I like to play with because for my own amusement that I don't really expect anyone to really care about. Maybe I have a little inkling of. Of hope that folks will kind of get it just like I. In the same way I get it. And they'll kind of go off and run and do something, but they kind of end up just my own toys sometimes with like, you know, the few people lingering in that very niche corner of the Internet, one of which is this peer to peer decentralized website stack called Crop Top. You can go to Crop Top Eth sucks. If you want to spin up a quick blog on your ENS and host it peer to peer. It's kind of like your. We call it the post platform. Posting platform. It's very much like a social media where there's no public feed that gets pushed onto you, but rather everyone has their own site and you can go and read from that site like I have mine at django eth sucks. Yeah. Or django whatever. YouTube. You sent me down the Crop top rabbit hole, by the way. Yeah. And so it's not like, like I, I don't expect that thesis to like really matter in the grand scheme of things. But. But I like peer to peer content, you know. Yeah, I think it's the coolest thing. And I don't like social media. Like I'm not someone who gets any joy floating around like X or Forecaster. Doesn't make a difference to me. This is not how I enjoy posting my content. And so For a while I kind of shied away from posting anything or, or, or being, or kind of recording things that I, that kind of brought me in clings of joy throughout the day. So I, you know, for me it was like a, my own website where I can post shit to. And I know it's not going to be shoved in people's faces. If someone goes, wants to go and look for it, great, it's there. But it's not like trying to compete for attention in a feed or something. So in that sense, like, you know, there's cool kind of maybe some commercial commercialization components to it. It could be useful for, for business and things like that, but that's not primary concern. I just think it's really cool. But rarely do I, I will. I mean, I'm also not in any of this to like, just to kind of appease a market. I'm in a bunch of this stuff because like I find it beautiful. I enjoy the people I work with these things on. I like the thought experiments, I like writing code, implementing code. So I'm not really looking for shortcuts. I just like doing things because I really love it and I wouldn't do something that I didn't really love. So, you know, there's a, there's not a lot of sunk cost in like trying something or even bringing it to some conclusion and then falling flat from like a no one cares perspective. Because like if, if I, if I, if, if I didn't enjoy doing it or I didn't want the conclusion, like, I wouldn't have done it. Yeah. So it's more just like running into happier accidents when those energies line when like something I'm, I'm excited about or I'm helping a good team work on actually intersects with other builder communities or, or other kind of communities and we're able to kind of, kind of join composite of various, various kind of aspects of what you work on to create a, a new whole on of, of further potential. Yeah, that's where the fun happens. All right, so, last one. So I know I've held you over by a little bit extra. I do appreciate your time for doing this by the way, and I think for everyone here, revenants, I'll probably, I also learn by doing so most likely we might see a revenant from my side and then I just document it, share it to my newsletter and stuff like that. So that's how I go about learning stuff. But I did have one last one. It's a very simple one, a little Bit of an odd one. So I got started initially with this whole content thing as bite size bits of news and information for people to digest. So it started off with. With the title as Pinchas, but we've pivoted from there. So. So with that theme, I've asked every guest, what is your favorite snack? Favorite snack is. And there's no repercussions. So you could say like chocolate every day and no repercussions. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I am a big fan of. There's a. There's like a. A peanut snack we eat in Brazil called a pasoka, which is just kind of like sugar and crushed peanuts in a little cube. You can do all kinds of delicious kind of versions of it. And they're delicious, they're energetic, they're just amazing. And I've only found it in that corner like in this. In Brazil. It's not really like a thing that's that kind of like the Eminem company has figured out how to. How to take and scale. Found a way to bastardize it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Like a good basakas are great. I also love. There's another candy that I like making as well, but really like eating is the balajibanana, which is a banana candy. It's basically cooked down a banana and you kind of roll it around in some like coconut flakes and you just have this like chewy cooked banana a bit that's like sweet and delicious and. Oh, it's so good. Sounds amazing. I'm learning Brazilian Portuguese so now I have two things to add to my list of cultural immersion. There you go. There you go. Yeah. I guess I accidentally picked two. Two very Brazilian things. Yeah. Maria in the chat said she likes bakoka or. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, There you go. That's all about it. Awesome. Well, thanks again for your time. Thank you so much. This was. This was great. Yeah. I think. Yeah. For folks who want to get the. The easier to the more tactile version of all this retail. Banny Eth Sucks is a great storefront experience to shop around for. For digital art assets and the funds of which fund the Ban Revenet too. So come and join that network as well. You can kind of follow the breadcrumbs from that site and end up everywhere else. I think it's a great starting point for your. For. For the. The. The general audience though. Awesome. Yeah. I put the link in there for anyone that is interested. I'll also have the link to your memo for revenants crop top if Anybody wants to go down that rabbit hole with me and anything we talked about. Yeah, I'll share it all in here. It'll be in the descriptions for the, for the show. All right, welcome back. So this week's cast off question and for those not familiar cast offs, where I want to hear from you, the audience, this week's cast off question is what do you think about Revenants? Is this something that you can see yourself using as a concept, content creator or someone trying to start a business on chain? Seems pretty, pretty awesome and it saves you a lot of time in terms of getting revenue back to people like dispersing that, especially as it needs to scale. Yeah. So if you're hearing this message, you've listened to the entire episode. Thank you for that. If you're listening to this episode on pods, make sure to collect it. And if not, go check out pods media and you can see my podcast in there. Collect the episode. If you like this episode, make sure to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, wherever you listen to it. I'll also be putting all these episodes fully on chain on our weave, so they'll be here forever. I also have a new podcast called Zero Sync, which is a premium only podcast. It's like deep dives, 15 minutes. Pretty awesome stuff. All right, see you guys on social media. See you next week. Peace, Sa.