How ENS Subdomains Will Change the Internet Forever with Cap from Namespace

In this episode, host Gramajo sits down with Chris—better known as Cap—from the Namespace team to dive deep into the fascinating world of on-chain identity, Ethereum Name Service (ENS), and the evolving landscape of digital branding in Web3. Cap shares his personal journey from early days of mining Bitcoin in college, through navigating the whirlwind of ICOs, to leading Namespace, a company focused on making on-chain names accessible and practical for brands and communities. The conversation explores why ENS domains are much more than just wallet addresses—they're a powerful tool for building community, enhancing brand reach, and streamlining onboarding for the next wave of Web3 users. Plus, Cap offers insights into the challenges and major opportunities facing the ENS ecosystem, dishes on unexpected use cases, and shares where ENS is headed next. Whether you’re a seasoned crypto enthusiast or just ENS-curious, this is an episode packed with stories, strategy, and visionary thinking about the future of digital identity.

00:00 Disillusioned by Early Crypto Mining

09:23 Translating Tech for Legal Teams

13:29 User-Friendly, Technical ENS DAO

17:26 "Tokenizing Domains with FluidKey"

23:21 "Power of People Over Names"

29:32 "Advocacy via Social Media Impressions"

34:33 Crypto Usernames Replace Wallet Addresses

42:03 ENS DAO Address Resolution Issue

46:49 Advocating ENS: Standardizing Wallet Usernames

50:34 "ENS Expands with Strategic Hires"

54:44 Crypto Address Management Challenges

01:03:44 Protocol Proposal for Domain Tokenization

01:05:53 Tokenizing Top-Level Domains Proposal

01:13:34 Quitting Sugar Ends Coffee Craving

Transcript

0:00

But let's say I do a million impressions per year. I have.it in my name. That means that, like, million people, like, either consciously or subconsciously saw my name, which has dot E. And I'm talking right now to people like. You don't understand how much this enhances your brand in the digital space. The digital realm. Yep. Welcome back to another episode of behind the Screen with Kamaha, the podcast where we unravel the untold stories of the best on chain builders and creators. I'm your host, Grimaho, an avid crypto enthusiast. It's been in the space since 2012. Yeah. So this week we have Cap from the Namespace team. We really dove deep into the whole ENS on chain identity world. Cap has a really cool company that helps essentially proliferate your brand or your community in the blockchain or in this kind of new digital economy, which is really cool. I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. Definitely a fun one. One that I've been wanting to do for a hot minute once I found out about the name Space team. All right, see you guys on the other side. So, again, thanks for hopping on and for doing this. I know you're off to France real soon. I'm sure it's gonna get real busy over there. Yeah. So who. I think I want to start kind of with you in your Web three story, and then we could kind of from there, go into the namespace and, like, what you're building with namespace. Yeah. So who is Cap? Feel comfortable to docs as much as you feel comfortable. And then how did you get into Web3? Yeah, let me send it. Say this on the record as well, because I said it when we were not live. Thank you for having me. Such a pleasure to be here along with some other amazing names and guests that you've had. So excited to meet you, man. And, yeah, thanks for the invite. So I'm Cap, or people in crypto know me as Cap. I don't mind doxing myself as well. My name is Chris, and I'm the founder of Namespace. And my crypto journey began when I was, like, second year at college. I studied computer science in college, and friend of mine came over and he was like, there's this, like, new kind of cryptographic, cryptographic, like, thing. It's called blockchain. I don't know. Like, it's a decentralized database. Like, let me. Let me set it up for you. Like, you can participate in the network by mining, and you have, like, a good. I bought, like, a really nice desktop computer at the time. He was like, you have a nice computer, let me set it up for you so you can mine and you can get like these bitcoins in return. And I was like, okay man, whatever. Let's see what that is all about. And then he set it up for me. And I remember I used to mine like 2 or 3 bitcoins per month with just leaving the computer to mine when I was sleeping. And bitcoins were worth like whatever, like a hundred dollars at the time. And I was like, this is just not worth my time because anytime you turn on the computer and started to mine, it just immediately occupies the entire your CPU capacity or GPU capacity. And yeah, you couldn't just use your computer. And I was like, yeah, the hell with this, I don't want to do this. Like, this is boring and I'm not making any money, right? So yeah, that is my first crypto encounter. And like fast forward like a few years later, I think in 2018, during the ICO boom, people were like going crazy. Everyone was raising like millions of dollars. And that just sort of attracted my attention. And I was like involved sort of as a, like a sales advisor or something like that with some projects, but I wasn't really too much into it. And then I met some of the cool people in Belgrade where I was living at the time. And then we started like working on some ideas. Nothing fancy, nothing crazy. Like there was, you have to remember, like there was like the. The idea of like Ethereum allowing you the ability to, to have smart contracts was insane, right? So like at the time we didn't even, we couldn't even comprehend or foresee everything that would be built here right now. So yeah, not a lot of crazy stuff that we just built some minor ideas here and there. And then like I had a few years again off, I guess. Not off, but I was just like passively just like watching the industry. When I was in the us, I studied there for a while and then I came back home and in 2020 or 21, I don't remember, I just went all in and I started investing. Got into like every single crypto rabbit hole that there ever was. I was there at the end of it. So yeah, I got into just like, just knee deep into everything. Like all the, like the Dexes started coming out and know the Defi summer and all that stuff. So I caught every single trend, every single innovation. I was reading about everything. I was just in love with everything. And then at one point, you know, I remember I was reading something, it was like some, some, some high level math thing, white paper, whatever it was. And I just didn't understand shit, man, to be honest. And I was like, okay, this is getting out of hand. Like, this industry is not like it used to be. I remember like reading about something and I was like, okay, this is awesome. I immediately understand it and I can just, you know, whatever. Like I can talk to someone about it, right? And I remember reading this white paper, and then the next one, after the next one, things getting started getting even more complicated. And it just used to take me a lot of time just to understand, like, basic concepts for these guys. And I was like, okay, I gotta focus my attention somewhere. And then like, I was kind of deciding what, what do I want to do? And I just remember throughout this entire process, I was doing a lot of research, a lot of like, heavy investing in projects early and just like, as I said, literally at the frontier for everything. And yeah, that's how I stumbled across, I guess. Ens, fell in love with the protocol, got involved with the dao, one of the, like, most amazing people there. And, you know, I feel like that's, that's, that's why people stay. At the end of the day, it's all about the people that you meet. And yeah, I guess I met my folks there and decided to stay. And yeah, that's how we started. What was the question? To introduce myself. And then. Yeah, how you got into Web3, which I think you nailed it, man. Okay. We have similar stories in that I got started with. What was yours? Yeah, I got started with bitcoin. Just like, for background for you. I think a lot of my listeners know this, but I got started with Bitcoin in 2012. I was trying to buy some stuff online and you needed. Sure. So it was my last year of college and, you know, we were gonna have like a, A party and stuff like that. So, yeah, that's how I kind of found out about it through that way. And then like you said, like, I used to be able to under, like, bitcoin made sense. Like, the white paper made sense to me almost immediately. Like, it all resonated with me. And a lot of the early white papers, like, it was clear. But like, nowadays when I read some of the new, like, white papers of like, I don't even know, like, some of the Solana stuff that comes out, I'm like, I don't even know what the hell this is saying. Like, Yep. The beauty of, like, nowadays though, is that, like, I actually Just uploaded into chat GPT and I'm like, I have a conversation with it to try and understand it, but we're definitely like, there's some giga brains out there that I'm just like, yeah, man, there's some smart people working on crypto stuff. I'm like, I don't think I'm dumb, but I cannot say that I haven't been in some conversation where I felt like, you know, when you talk to someone and everything they said, they say just resonates and it makes sense. But after you're finished with the call, you're kind of like, you try to repeat what the guy said, and you're like, I have no idea. Like, I just want them to explain everything to you. Yep. Especially when we talk about the identity side of things. Like, I've been part of some conversations where I'm listening to people talk about stuff that is just. It's just crazy, you know, that is just like. I don't know, like, their. Their brain operates at, like, such a high level that. That I feel like you need just. Just a lot of. A lot of knowledge from every single aspect of crypto just to understand and be part of that conversation. Yeah, I've been. It doesn't happen that often, but I've certainly been part of those conversations as well. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, like, the skill that I'm seeing, too. So, like, I work with a lot of technical folks in real life, and, like, my role. My role is to kind of translate business requirements to technical requirements for legal teams and vice versa. So, like, whenever, like, a new update's coming out for some software, I have to, like, kind of translate that into, like, the impact to our, like, business operations for, like, the legal team. So I kind of play that role a lot. And you start appreciating folks that are, like, all, like, super smart, but also can, like, explain it to you, like, very well, you know, because there's people that are, like, super smart, but they also kind of, like, struggle. They get frustrated, you know, like, they're like, oh, why isn't this clicking to you? And it's like, dude, you're just super smart. And I'm just, like, not following, you know? And then there's some people that are. They have that really good skill of, like, being able to bridge that gap to, like, almost any audience. And those people are even scarier to me because I'm like, dude, on top of being super smart, you're also able to articulate this in such a great way to almost Any audience, I think. That'S really needed in our crypto industry. And I think those people, I think a dev rel who can do that is probably like the ideal candidate to have on your team because they have the technical kind of know how to either do an implementation or test out some project, but they also have sort of the. I don't even know how to explain in a few words, that ability to sort of translate all the technical stuff into something that translates into a particular and a business use case, so to speak. So, yeah, if you're able to find someone like that. Yeah, let me know. Those folks are really hard to come by and I think they are amazing CEOs. Right. So if you have someone who's able to speak but is also very, like, technically sharp, like, those guys are really good. And I've always sort of like, at least I kind of aspire to become someone like that because I have a technical background, but I also have, like a business background as well. But, yeah, it's definitely difficult. Yeah, I think that's like, what, from context for you. So last summer, so, like, in 2021, I never got involved with any daos just because that wasn't the space that, like, like, it seemed cool. Like, it's definitely something like, I was like, oh, dows are cool. Like, I think they should exist. I'm glad that we're doing that. But it just wasn't like the thing that was like, I wasn't itching to go explore daos as much. I think as an operations person, I was kind of like, I saw some issues with them, kind of the way they were being deployed. So I was like, I just don't want to get involved with that. But last year, in the summer, I was like, hey, I've never really given daos a fair shot. Let me actually go join a dao and try and participate and do the whole DAO experience before saying, hey, daos dows don't work or they suck or whatever. Especially, like now, like, you're seeing, like, this week is like, a really good week. A lot of people are like, dowser dead. Or. I mean, I even wrote an article about how, like, we were going to see that this week because of a ape coin and the Jupiter dao situation. Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember reading something about that. They're shutting down the Apcondo, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was like, I bet everyone's gonna. This week's the week that everyone's like, dowser dead and. And whatever. So, like, a Year ago I was like, let me actually just get my hands dirty and get in there and I guess to bring it back to what you like, kind of what you're saying, I also like. So I got into nouns, Dao, which is really great. And then, you know, I'm still exploring other, bigger, like other daos. And like ENS Dao was like one that stood out to me because it, it's like one of those tools where it's like, it's technical enough, like you can make it as complex as you need it to be, but also, it's also very like user interface, user experience centered, you know. So like, so I, I found that, like, really satisfying in terms of like, I was like, okay, like, so there's enough technical stuff happening here that like, it's like, good for my brain and for my curiosity. But it's also like real life impact where like deploying that with like Venmo or PayPal is like, like, that's very. Like anyone can like tangibly understand that. You know, like, if you, if you literally have those apps and you're like, nobody wants to type 0x, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like, you know, someone just wants to type gramajo eth and that's it, like, send it, you know, like, so like, almost like everyone can kind of like rally behind this idea of like, so all the nerds are like subcontracts and like smart or smart contracts and sub names and like, you know, they can all get like their itch from a technical perspective. But even like the end user, the consumer can also get the itch from like, hey, I never have to worry about these raw addresses being in my face. Yeah. Is that, is that why you chose ENS Dao? Is that you think, like, what led you to ensdao? Well, I could say that that sounds beautiful. I could just say like, oh, yes, I saw this entire potential. But like, when I joined three years ago, it was just like a domain name service like system. And it had a few pivotal moments, like with the launch of Name wrapper that enables sort of the creation of sub names and unraggable sub names, which kind of open up a whole bunch of different possibilities. And then with CCIP Read protocol and the standard where you could essentially store these sub names in different environments, so to speak, like, you can mint them on L tools, like on Base or on Optimism or wherever else, or you can just store them off chain. And we sort of like, this is, by the way, the entire kind of focus of namespace to streamline this entire operation and make it as easy as possible and to distill it to like a very simple, actionable kind of like use cases where you just like, you know how we want to use them and you can find it in our SDK, in our end, in our app. Right. But yeah, that's not how it started. Right. I think ENS just started as a simple domain name service and they said like, okay, we want to have human readable names for essentially every single blockchain digital resource and we can just name it, whatever that may be. And it naturally, I think just found its way to wallet addresses because that is just very kind of face on value. Instead of a wallet address, you see a username essentially. And that's the biggest sort of, I think the biggest pivotal moment was when everyone sort of in ens, including us and everyone realized that ENS next to being this domain protocol, is also an identity protocol. And it's the sort of the, how can I say this? Like it's one of the pillars of, on top of which the entire onchain identity is built and it's the central kind of like core component of the identity. Right? Because you cannot have identity without a name. Maybe like that's not really true. You can have like a kind of contextual identity like before you give it a name. But like in broader terms, like you cannot have identity for something without actually naming it. And this is like very true for wallets for, I mean for anyone who wants to integrate a naming service. So yeah, that's pretty cool. But ENS is just like so much more, man. Like I can talk about ENS for hours right now. Like when it started, as I said, it started as a simple kind of, let's call it a mapping tool, but right now it sort of extends the DNS. It's used as a username service. People use it to name wallets, people use it to name contracts. There is a cool initiative for contract naming services right now. FluidKey uses the dynamic wallet generation to show to the F key eth subname each time you transact. So it can be used as a privacy preserving tool. It can be used as a decentralized, censorship resistant, permissionless domain name service, like to resolve websites that are hopefully stored in again decentralized database or something. So it can be used, it extends DNS as well. So you can tokenize any domain that you own and essentially make that domain into a fully functional DNS name, inheriting all of the DNS names like properties and functionality and stuff, stuff like that and right now there's even an open sort of initiative and soon to be a proposal for tokenizing top level domains. So it would essentially allow all of the top level domains, like.com, whatever, to be tokenized and issue domains as tokens as well through the ENS protocol and essentially leverage the entire network of partners that ENS has built over the last like eight years of existence. So there's a lot of initiatives at. Ens, but yeah, yeah, no, that's exciting. I think that's what like, as I was exploring daos to get involved with ENS kind of just resonated with me very quickly and I was like, all right, you know, like I bought some ENS token and trying to just navigate my way on how to get involved. And also like, that's part of like why, why I reached out to you was like, I was like, hey, like, I'm not, I'm not going to build an app. I have an idea for an app now, now that I'm like thinking about it more and more. But you know, I was like, I'm just going to do what I do now, which is just talk to people and get the message out there on what they're building. And that's my contribution to the ENS ecosystem is, you know, through content essentially. If you want to slowly get involved, like, obviously I think you created the username on the forum and the forum is the best place to do so. Just enable those notifications for the stuff that you're interested in and I would also suggest like subscribing to the newsletter that goes like 20 twice or one once or twice a month. Like I think it's bi weekly. So yeah, twice a month. And it's run by Marcus, who's a great guy and a contributor at ens and he does like a very like detailed job of just capturing everything that happens inside of the ENS and sort of the outside in the broader ecosystem. So like, with each time you read it, I think you can get like a clearer picture into how people are using it. What's happening on the dao side, what's happening on the protocol level side, what's happening with the stewards and the working groups and you can just get a full picture of the recent events and developments. Yeah, that newsletter is super good. I subscribe to it. Yeah, I subscribe to it and I've read a couple and it's super detailed and really good. I was kind of quite shocked, like how much information is in there. Definitely, yeah, it's A good one for sure. Yeah. Shout out to Marcus, who runs that. Yeah. No, seriously, like, if you want, if you want feedback or Yelp star reviews, like, let me know, like, I'll leave them. Like, those are. That was a good newsletter. Like I've read the last like three and I, and I very quickly I was like, whoa, wow. I can see like, yeah, just like the amount of quality and work that goes into that thing. Let's see. So what kind of like, so like what led you to going all in on ENS to the point of like also creating a company called Namespace and like, what, what was that like? Yeah, so I remember, like, we were just me and my friend were discussing about like some, some ideas. What do we want to do? What do we want to build? Like, after the realization that we cannot keep. Keep up with every everything right now and how everything became like super difficult and we were thinking, like, what should we do? And then at the time, like, people were starting to talking, talk about like the name wrapper. Name wrapper upgrades Name wrapper. Not name rep. Name wrapper contract is the ENS contract that was launched that would essentially enable sub names to be unruggable. And in my mind I was like, okay, so like, if I register some really cool ENS name like Gamer Eth, I can start my own naming service off of Gamer Eth and I can treat Gamer Eth as a business. I can go to some games, you know, Talk Start, I don't know, like a game or guild or a Discord channel, or I can negotiate some partnerships to get some discounts. I can start a newsletter. I can do this. So I create like the entire brand around Gamer Eth, like below that. I allow people to issue sub names on a per year basis that will be rented on a per year basis, just like ENS names are. And I could make revenue doing that. And I was like, okay, this is pretty cool, but I don't want to do this because I think I can build something even cooler. So we basically built a platform that allows everyone to do this if they have a Coolian S name, their little kind of entrepreneurial spirit, and they want to start something. And that's how the idea started, basically. And we started talking to some people who have some really, really cool names and basically worked with them to get them set up to start minting sub names and this and that. But very soon after that, we realized that it's not so much about the cool name, it's about the. It's about the people who run these cool names, right? So like I can give you like gamer eth and you can mint, I don't know, a thousand sub names, but I can give whatever the shittiest name is to someone like Gary Vee and he can just send 10 millions of sub names, right? So it's about the people who run names, it's not about the name itself. So we've sort of pivoted our strategy a little ever since then. So we started working more with, with businesses ever since then. But it was very fun to work on the, on the, on the product that was consumer facing. We still kind of maintain sort of the consumer facing side of things. There are some people who are really, really cool and you know, still want to use our services and yeah, we'll think like we have some ideas on how to improve the consumer side of things, how to introduce some more features and stuff like that. But it's, it's not our like highest priority anymore. But that's basically how it started. That was the idea that made us go like, oh, that'd be cool, that'd be awesome. And we even built the mvp. We went into the dao, we did the demo, then we did some improvements and stuff like that. And we received like a 10k retractive, like a grant reward as thanks for building with us. You guys are cool. We want to keep you in our ecosystem. And then we were like, okay, this is so awesome. And we just stayed ever since then. That's awesome. Yeah, no, I agree with you with that. When I think of namespace and the problems that you guys are trying to solve, that was kind of like the first thing that came to mind to me was like if you have a cool ensuite and you're building like you said, it's not just like, oh, I, I got, I have the ENS and that's it, like problem solved. Like I, we're good. It's more like the community building aspect of it around it or the community that like you bring with you. So like when I think of like, like pizza Dao, you know, like it's, it's. They're trying to build a community and, and the ENS name part and giving out subdomains of that is like almost secondary. It's like actually just bringing, bringing your community with you and yeah, and you. Have to do, you have to do these things in partner with communities that you're working with. Like I can buy pizza Dao that eth and I can start it and I can build a website and I can do that. So, like, say like, if you like pizza dao mean to subname. But that doesn't make sense coming from me. They have to be the one to roll it out. They know their community the best. They know what they can offer, maybe to their community if they end up minting some name, if they want to charge for them, if they want to give them for free, it's really up to them. So, yeah, yeah, no, I think about this too. Even with like nouns, you know, nouns has like a really strong brand and I'm pretty sure we have nouns dot E if I'm not mistaken, or some kind of version of that. And it's such a, like, it's known by so many people. And I think also like, on top of giving the name, it's like plugging it into your ecosystem. So, you know, like, for us, we have a, a custom piece of software called Noun Camp where we do all of our governance and discussions on there. And really like, what it should be is like, when you come to nounscamp, if you don't have a eth ENS resolving, we should be really pushing people to be like, hey, you know, here's a free nouns ETH subdomain that you can. So you can. So everyone has like a recognizable name, you know, so. Because like, right now we'll get, we'll get proposals sometimes from people that either don't have a dot eth, like resolution, or maybe it's a multi sig. You know, for whatever reason, it could be multiple things. They're from like Nigeria, they haven't bought an ens and then it's just a raw wallet asking for money. And you're like, dude, I have no idea who this is. Like, I don't even know if this is a guy, a girl of them. Like, I don't. Like, there's just nothing, like, there's no identity to it. Like, kind of like what you're saying. Yeah. So I, I don't think the ENS reveals too much of an identity. So you can basically anyone I can come and I can register cap nouns, eth, but I can also register random guy nouns eth. Right. But still, it just gives such a clean user experience. And not only that, but I think, and I spent a lot of time thinking about this while talking to communities and wallets and games or some tools and service providers or L2 chains or whoever. And we always, like, try to come up with, you know, the best kind of ways and reasons why they should implement ENS and subname registrations. And there are so many, so many good reasons to do it specifically for communities and brands. It's such a brand enhancement that no one understands this. But, like, when you mint. When I meant cap nouns, eth, and for. For a wallet, I set that as my primary name. Like, anywhere where my wallet in the last five years. And I had this wallet for, like, let's say five years. Anywhere where I interacted, where I'm, like, displayed at some leaderboards, where I'm sending and transacting money with someone, anywhere in Etherscan, like, anywhere, any place where my wallet has been, you can see kept nouns that eth. Right? So it's literally like a free sort of marketing tool that is just like, out there. Not only that, but I think the strongest advocates use them on their farcaster, on their lens, on their Twitter and so forth. I. I did this like, a little kind of, kind of like quick research thing because I was creating a proposal for one, one of my favorite wallets that hopefully we end up working with, and I created like a. Like a draft sort of like a proposal for them. And I looked into how many impressions does my Twitter account gets per year, and it's around a million impressions just off of my, like, random things that I say. Like, out of those random things, like, I'll have three tweets that basically put me over over a million. Like, if I didn't have those, like, it would be like, I don't know, 2, 300,000. But let's say I do a million impressions per year. I have.it in my name. That means that, like, million people, like, either consciously or subconsciously saw my name, which has daddy. And I'm talking right now to people like, you don't understand how much this enhances your brand in the digital space, in the digital realm. Because imagine that you guys, for example, you are the nouns down. You have a thousand or ten thousand, you know, followers or subscribers or nouns minted or some names off of nouns minted. And out of those 10,000, let's say a thousand people just use them in their Twitter accounts. And if those thousand people have a million impressions per year, that's like billion impressions for nouns. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's crazy. That's insane. It is. Yeah. I mean, okay, I may be given, like, pretty big numbers. I don't know if you can have like, you know, thousand people rocking, you know, their name dot nouns that eth. But base certainly did that, you know, base names from base. That is, there's probably thousand people that have base names into their Twitter names and on Farcastlens and just like think about all the other places. So when you combine all of that, that just yields like probably a billion impressions for them. Like just people seeing base everywhere. And it's such a, such a no brainer for brands to do this. And I just, I'm trying to get my message out there as clearly as I can in all of my proposals in any kind of like integrations or partnerships deal that we try to make on behalf of obviously ens. So yeah, no, I think it's a cool space, man. I think that you're trying to solve. Someone was asking me about it right before this call and they have a pretty strong brand crypto sapiens. And I also am building one around Area 51. And they were like, what is namespace and how does it tie into? Why are you interviewing this person? And I just told them, I was like, look, if you're trying to build a community, I honestly think this tool is probably like, everyone should be looking at this tool because for that reason. So if your person doesn't come with a ENS or name, I was like, now everyone could have. My first name is Juan. So I can have Juan at area 51 eth or Juan at cryptosapiens. Ethan. It just seems like a fun kind of way to get people, especially if we're trying to onboard. For me, I do a lot of all these videos and my podcast. I actually post a lot of stuff to Web two platforms. So it's not just all Web three. And so we do get people that are Web two, people that have zero crypto exposure and they want to come and join our communities. And if they don't want to, like, if, if they're just casually looking into it and they don't want to commit to buying their own ens, I could be like, hey, here's a free one. Like, yep, you know, if it's over five letters, I can give you a free one. Why don't you take, you know, your first name at Area 51 ETH, and that's yours until you either graduate or want to switch it or do whatever you want, you know, like, but here's a free one. And, and it's such a good tool to like build a stronger brand. Like we're seeing a little bit of this on Discord too. Like, so on Discord you can do, like, I forget the word that they use, but like, you can choose to rep, like your community, like next to your name. So, like, I'm on the rec Discord, which is osf and you could do like a little logo. And so he did skull and then it's just like wrecked. So it's kind of like clans a little bit. So I'm like, dude, this is basically like ENS because now you're repping the skull wrecked on all these other servers. Genosis has one too. It's like gno little pearl. It's like the exact same concept, but like you said, so subconsciously or consciously, however you want to look at it, people are seeing this name now in multiple places. So it's like it's free advertising basically. And next to obviously scale, like, this is what I explained in one of my articles. It literally unlocks the horizontal scaling for a. This is the reason why we do it, among other things. But it sort of reinforces this overall mission that we are on and that is to air quotes, replace or 0x addresses with human readable names or usernames. So I definitely foresee a future where if we want like all, every single person in the world, like 8 billion people to use crypto, we have to switch from wallet addresses to usernames sort of as a standard. So yeah, for communities, like, it's super simple, super, like a super cool thing to do. And it's such a fun experience to work with communities like, just to have them rally around like one, like one cohesive, unified identity under one namespace of their brand. It's such a cool, such a cool way to like signal either your support or the clan that you belong to or the community that you're like subscribed to or you're crazy about them or so forth. So it's super cool. But obviously like, we should also, we should also mention like the next two UX improvements that it does. It can be used to simplify the onboarding. It's used like as a, as a, you know, to remove the anxiety for, from transacting experience. Right. Every time. I don't know about you, but every time I copy paste message, like I always check, like, what's your, what are your last four letters? Right? You know, this is, this is what we do. Like we check for the last four every time. And if you just do usernames and you just type them in, you're never going to check anything anymore. There are a lot of cool use cases that you can implement, but yeah. All right, let's take a quick break. Hope you're enjoying this episode. This episode was made possible with the support of my premium subscribers, Seattle Dog MC Vinyls and Brennan. Appreciate all three of you. Brennan, Glad to see that you're feeling back and coming back to joining us in the web3 space. If you'd like to receive exclusive drops access to token gated content, including the video of this podcast, make sure to subscribe to my hypersub or my substack, depending on which payment method you want to do. I also am doing a crowdfund to get myself to interview folks more in real life in person at conferences. So think of like Mountain Dao, they're. Doing something in Salt Lake City, defconnect out in Argentina, possibly even thinking about interviewing the Lynx folks over at their new golf course. Yeah, if you want to see kind. Of more of that content behind the scenes, definitely support me in the crowdfund. I'll have a link below. Let's get back to it. I I had a question for you before we continue on the namespace that I kind of wanted to ask you because I feel like I want to get your thoughts on this. So an example is like, so I have my own ens, right? So gramaho eth. And then if we continue with the nouns one, I have, you know, gramaho nouns eve and then I have my, my base name as well. So gravaho base name E. So like, if we start having all these like different identities, I guess is the way to say it. Like, doesn't that like fragment our identity or does it unify it? Like, I wanted to get your takes on that because like, I was kind of struggling with that a little bit in terms of like, does it feel like we're like splitting into too many pieces or something? If you look at them as NFTs in your in your wallet, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are splitting your identity. Like if you own Bored Ape and a cryptopunk, is your identity split, right? No, you just belong to two different communities. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. And this is, this is sort of the same situation where you just use them as an identifier so you don't have to. You can have and I think the sort of the community and free sub names through any kind, whether through a wallet or through a community, are essentially like a, like a path to registering your own eth, a name that you hopefully use as your primary name. But you can still receive money on your community subname. So if you belong to nouns.eth and you have gramaho nouns.eth people can still send you money. They can. They can find you by that Subname, they can do whatever they want, like using the time because they know it's yours, but you can use a different one as a primary name. And I mean, like, I can ask you the same kind of question with regards to, for example, Web2World. Like if you have. If we look at ENS for what they are, and let's just say that for sake of argument, they are increasingly like becoming, you know, just web three native usernames. Is your identity split if you have one username in Instagram and then another username in Facebook and then another username in, I don't know, like TikTok or whatever. Right. Those are all different usernames and completely siloed data points and information about you in different sort of servers. At least all of these are on chain and kind of communicate with each other. Right? Yeah, so. So you can make an argument that identity split, but I think everything stays unified. It's just like a matter of perception. Yeah, no, the nft, that landed very quickly. So thank you. I'm glad that I asked you because I was thinking about it, I was like, are we fragmenting ourselves? I wonder if it's more like a UX or app thing, you know, because I would love to, like, I would love to have the choice, you know, Like, I would love to be on nouns camp and be like, hey, you know, on nouns, I'm just going to be Grimaho Nouns dot E. Like I want to rep my nouns. That's interesting. Specific sub, like name, you know. And then if I'm like on Twitter or somewhere else, you know, everyone can know me as Grimaho Ethan. So I wonder if it's like an app thing where we need to tell people like Rainbow Wallet or Uniswap Wallet. Hey, if this person has multiple names that they could resolve to give them the choice to be like, on Uniswap, I want to be known as Karma Uniswap E. Yeah. So I wonder if it's that. I think maybe that's where my brain is kind of stuck at, is maybe it's like a user experience, app choice or something. That's a really like a good question that I would have to think about and maybe consult some people as well, because I don't see. I mean, I could probably like try to figure out the answer and how would I implement that, But I have no idea if that would work or what I would break in the process because I feel like that's a client side resolution type of thing. Yeah, exactly. And like we as An ENS DAO and a community and an ecosystem already have an issue with the resolution process as it is. Because, you know, for example, if you go to Metamask and then you switch to Optimism and then you type in your Dari name, and if you don't have Optimism address record underneath your name, that name that you're trying to resolve, MetaMask will not resolve it. It will just say the record doesn't exist. Because Metamask used to look. Look at your Ethereum address record as a default, but now it looks your Optimism address record if you are switched to the Optimism chain in Metamask, whereas if you go to Coinbase Wallet or Zerion Wallet or whoever else, I think they do still the standard type of resolution, which is like, they just look at your Ethereum address, because when you mint an ENS name, it just like automatically adds your Ethereum address from the, like the address that you use to mint the name, it adds the Ethereum address of that, of that address that minted that name. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes sense. So. So just by the fact that Metamask does resolution correctly, it could be perceived as if something is not, like, happening, something is wrong. Right. Because if you, if you switch to Base or Optimism and you try to resolve it, like, you can get confused, like, why does it, why does this not work anymore? Right. So I think we have to standardize the resolution process and I think there are some initiatives around standardization with, like, chain zero something or other. I didn't dive deeper into this, but we'll figure it out, I think, as an industry. But once we figure that out, like, then we can do different type of resolutions. But I have to think about it. This is a really, really cool, cool proposition that you've made. Yeah, I think that's where my brain was kind of like, having the choice and because really, like, ultimately it's all resolving to the same place, at least in my nouns example. Like, it's all the same Wallet. Yeah, it's just he always looks at the primary name. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, all right, that's fine. So what's the biggest problem you guys are facing now in Namespace? The biggest problem we're facing in Namespace right now is trying to decide who to hire among so many cool people that we interviewed. I'm joking, but, yeah, we're in the process of interviewing, and this has been such a journey. I have a new and profound respect for HR industry. Honestly, it's so tough. It's so tough to interview people to Come up with the questions to make sure that, you know, you answer all the right questions and then you go through an hour long interview and all that stuff. But yeah, but anyway. So what's the biggest problem that we are facing right now? I guess just getting the message across in terms of like communicating value proposition of ENS can sometimes be difficult because people see it as just a simple naming service. Like they don't fully understand the full capabilities the ENS has to offer. So you know, selling ENS is a bit more difficult at times because I like to, I like to say that people perceive ENS as a vitamin, not a painkiller. So they see it as something that it's nice to have, but not something that it's absolutely mandatory into their apps. And we're trying to change that because there's a lot of, a lot of benefits that ENS brings with its integration. So that has been sort of like the biggest, biggest obstacle next to the fact that we're trying to figure out in different industry how to best implement ENS and ENS sub name registrations so we can kind of, as I said, scale horizontally from different places. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes sense. I, I would agree. I. It's shocking to me that, that either like it doesn't resolve like in certain apps. I, I think it's happening less nowadays. Like I think most wallets that I've downloaded like resolves or there's no issues. But yeah, like you said, like it's definitely like, I wouldn't say it's an optional step, you know, like even like subdomains. You know, I would feel like, dude, like we should get away from, from that world of raw addresses. This literally happened yesterday. I think that. Let me pull. Yeah, I think I saw a tweet where you, where you were talking about that where someone's like, how is this like not being forced or something? Yeah, exactly. Is there a way that I can share this? Like Josh from, from Ethereum foundation, he posted that, that said like who's building like the kind of ultra simple and super safe wallet. And one of the things that he mentioned is like it enforces ENS during the registration. And this is literally the kind of the main selling point that we were giving when we were talking to wallets. And a lot of people sort of were like confused by that, asking like why would ENS be there? Like why would you enforce it? And I'm like, let's just switch from wallets to usernames and have ENS sort of as A standard for everyone to use in transacting. But yeah, I mean, I feel like I should do a Twitter space. I would love to talk to some of these people and I would love to have my, you know, what's the word? I would love to hear some counterarguments as to why this is maybe a bad idea, because I think that will naturally help me grow because anyone that I talk to, everyone loves uns. Right. And I don't know. I don't know, maybe people just don't understand the. The full kind of scope, the utility that DNS has to offer. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, I put it in. I put it in the chat, which pushed it to YouTube and then I manually posted it on Twitter in case anybody it's on there and wants to check out that post. Yeah, I think you should do a space audit because I also would like to know what are the downsides to it? You know, if there are. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Like, I read that. I was like, yeah, like, how. How is this? Yes. Like, someone tell me. Like, I'm crazy. And that's. Yeah. So each wallet that has their custom brand, like, like a subname registration process, you could literally have a skip button. Like, you want a username. Nope, Skip. That's it. Like, so I don't see any downside to it. Like, you can even go a step further. And if someone is connecting the wallet, connecting to your wallet, or like importing the wallet, and if they have a primary name set, you don't even have to prompt them with the question, do you want to register a username if they have a primary name set? So I feel like there's no downside to the very least, but I can definitely argue for some points that are definitely a huge upside down. Well, if you do schedule that, let me, let me know, because I'd love to tune in and, and hear maybe. Maybe there's something I'm not thinking about. But yeah, I agreed with you. Like, even a skip button. Like, yeah, I don't know. We'll see, we'll see. Maybe after Friends. Yeah, let's see. So I do want to talk a little bit about ENS as well. Just mostly because I think I'm new to it, so bear with me on that. But like, yeah, ENS recently partnered up with PayPal and Venmo. That was like, really crazy news. I mean, it's not recently, but like in the last, like, let's say two years, year and a half. What do you think is the next kind of like, frontier for. For ens Is it just like another app? Like, are we talking Robin Hood? Like they're a bunch of about to launch something like recently. Is it, is it going like to Robin Hood? Or do you think it's something even crazier or deeper than that? I'm not at liberty to discuss. All right, yeah, no worries. You're good. I'm joking. So ENS has recently hired some really cool people, ENS Labs, that is, has recently hired some really cool people on the business side of things and on the partnership side of things. And we've been working sort of together in some cases and you're going to see a lot of, a lot of cool ENS integrations and partnerships done, whether just as an ENS Labs or just as namespace or a sort of collaborating on something. But yeah, on the biggest frontier, I think it's about time we implement sub names or at least ENS names. But I think some names can play a better role in centralized exchanges because those are literally the gateways to crypto. Right. Majority of people join crypto via centralized exchange. If you give them a Web three native, universally resolvable username, even if it's off chain but still works in the Web3 context, that's a huge game changer. Like just give them a username that resolves in every single wallet that is out there outside of your centralized exchange and we're good. Also, I think centralized exchanges, like occasionally change the depositing address. So this also kind of fixes the issue for them where they don't have to tell the users, like, oh, we changed the address, like, this is the new address. Yeah. You know how they tell you, like, do not store this address because like we change it like occasionally or whatever. Right. So I think you can just like, if you keep that address, new address assigned to a name, like, you don't have to change the, you don't have to tell your users anything. Right. They can just use the username for everything. So I think it's about time we do like some big centralized exchange. I don't know if we're working on that, but we'll definitely try this year. When I say we, I say namespace. Maybe DNS guys are already making some moves there. But I would also like to see, you know what I would like to see because we haven't integrated so we have the full kind of the, like a super cool kind of the DNS extension through GoDaddy and like all of these ways, like you can tokenize domain. Like. Well, ENS likes to say that they are the extension of the DNS namespace and they are. So we made it like progress there. Obviously on the institutional side of things there's like a huge, like an asset manager, I forget their name that they're using Namespace. Not namespace but ens. There's obviously now Paypal and Venmo. So the payment apps, like we're cool but I would really like to see like some web 3 crypto friendly bank integrate ENS. That will be super cool to see but I think we're going to see like we're going to start to see all the web three native apps and protocols, you know, just kind of, kind of naturally just like having some sort of ENS integration there. But yeah, the deposit address on centralized exchanges, man, that one hit. You get it, right? Exactly. That freaks me out. That's like the one time in my current setup now where I can't just be in my wallet and then be like I sent it to Coinbase to the seat address or whatever like a month ago. That's the same one. Like I actually have to go open the Coinbase app and sometimes it is the same one and sometimes it isn't, you know. Yeah, I'm like, man, like why do I have to do this stuff? Like really, it should just be a name. You know, everywhere else I could send people just names, you know, I'm just like what's your ens? I'll just send it there and then I'm done, you know. But like that one, that's the one time I'm like oh, let me go check. Yeah, let me copy it. I have to copy it on top of that and then go back into my wallet again and then send the funds from there. I know that that would be prime. It's the, it's the same thing. Like we have, you can have and for example we use Gnosis Safe Multi sig wallet for like selling, sending salaries or getting our grant or whatever. But anytime, like I have to tell people like if we hire someone who's a contractor or whatever, like I have to tell, tell them to send us the wallet. Or like some people don't know, like they'll use, they can say like oh whatever, just send it to my, you know, this address and this is the whatever Coinbase or a Binance depositing address. And I'm like, like I cannot, that I cannot add that into the address book that, that feature that Agnostic Safe has because that address can literally become like a null like unusable address tomorrow, you know. So I'm not saving that at any cost, but I can have like your daddy name or sub name if they had it and they would just like switch the, essentially the depositing address each time for you and you wouldn't even know. So I don't know. It's a cool feature, but it also introduces this sort of like, like crypto, you know, it's kind of scary. It's, it's anxiety inducing type of experience, especially for people who don't know about it and they just learn about addresses. And I feel like the centralized exchanges want to move as securely and as slowly as possible because if they introduce a lot of changes in a very short period of time, users would just get overwhelmed. And even though for us this makes sense for someone else who's now finally getting used to, you know, copying the address and then, you know, doing the thing. Like you would have to ask them like, oh, you now just have one username, so I can maybe understand their aspect. But I feel like, yeah, if you just tell them just use usernames, we'll handle everything, they should go for it. Yeah, that'd be sick, I guess. I have two more. Go ahead. I have, I have. Anything else? I don't have anything else, sorry. Okay. Oh, awesome. I got two more. Like, well, I got like two, three more questions and then go ahead. I do have to hop on to another to a work call, but let's see. I'm trying to figure out which one we should do first. First let's ask all of them and I'll do all of them in like five minutes. All right, so let's go with, let's start with this one. Let's keep it on this, on this thread. What's kind of like the most unexpected use case that you've seen or that you can imagine with ETH domains, how we would interact online. So either you've seen it or like you want to see this. Oh, okay. Well, so it's kind of similar to the Coinbase or like the centralized exchange one, a little similar to that. But like, is there any other use cases in there that you think would on how we completely change how we can interact online? I don't know, I just see them, I just see them being used everywhere. Right. Especially with these like wallet sort of infrastructure providers that you have now. Like even if you, if you embed subname registrations at the sort of the wallet provisioning infrastructure, right. You could literally offer every single one who's leveraging them to immediately get access to sub names so this is something that we've been exploring for a while now and we'll probably try to do in the next year. But I mean, there are a lot of use cases for like, we have to, like we mentioned fluidkey. I think fluidkey is like a pretty good example of what, how, how can they be used? But like, for example, there was a, we worked with a guy who was using sub names sort of as a selling mechanism to essentially send people like physical keychains from their primary names. So people would, people would buy whatever, like cap, enskeychain eth and they have to fill out their, you know, information, their address, their name, their whatever, essentially shipping address. And you would receive essentially a keychain with like an NFC chip that when you tap it, it just opens up your ENS profile and it gives you like a custom branded, your like primary names, sort of like an ENS profile in the form of a keychain. So that one was pretty like unusual. But I don't know, like, I see them just being used everywhere, like across wallets or games or you know, social networks, like, you name it, like payment apps, obviously, you know, centralized exchanges, anything like, even AI. Something that we want to do is like build this or like, at least on the ideal level, try to figure out how to build a universal AI agent registry. Because you have ENS profiles sort of as a standard for what human needs. So, you know, name description, your social records and stuff like that. And then he addresses. But coincidentally or not, AI agents with the increasing degree of autonomy, they also need that information. So my argument basically there is the best place to store all of that information and to be accessible is on chain. And the best way to do it is essentially using ENS as the foundation for that. And we can expand on whatever the future needs of the AI agents are. But I think ENS is a good starting ground as it is right now. So I don't know, maybe that, I don't know if that answer is satisfactory. No, it does. Yeah, yeah, no, and I agree with you. I mean, especially as agents take off, you know, you want to make sure you're using the right agent that you're tagging, interacting with the same one. I mean, we have the same thing happen in Telegram too. You know, like I, you know, there's like a bunch of duplicates of the same bot and you don't know which one you're interacting with. And if you interact with the wrong one, you know, you could be depositing your money into the, a compromised wallet or something. You know, so we're sharing information that you don't want to be sharing to a completely different bot. True. I think, Yeah, I think having like a registry of like, of like bots or whatever. Yeah, I think that works. It's still early, it's still early in the development, but we'll figure it out. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I think like in that one it's like I would want like the social proof of it. So like, I'll give you a good example of that. Like, so on Farcaster, we have bankerbot, I think Banker Bot's now on Twitter as well. But like deployers, the, the creator of that bot, that's the name of the, the guy or person that created that. You know, I would want to see it where if I'm interacting with Bankerbot, like it should also have like social proof underneath. It's like, you know, buy Deployer. Like the, the. Yeah, yeah, that account. You know, like buy the right ENs or whatever. So I know I'm like interacting with the right one and not like, you know, a knockoff version of BankerBot. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Sort of as a, like a, like, I guess like slight, like a mini verification service that you're using the, the bot that's been deployed by the address that you trust. Correct. Yeah. So like I think about it like from, so I think about it from like a PGP key perspective. So like, like it's a hash, like an authenticated hash saying like, I'm the one that deployed it. This is the code I wrote. Like, you know, you're verifying like, this is my key and you can, and you could double check that no one's like interfered with the production code or anything because it's signed. Like it's very like, that's a very old school method. I don't think we, I don't even think people know what PGP keys are anymore. But like that's what I think about is like that. Yeah, I don't know, we'll. We'll have to think about this one a bit more, figure out what works. Yeah. All right, so another one too is I think kind of going back a little bit to that question of like, what's next on the ENS frontier. So I saw this like, thread come up about Open Box and like an investment. I know you're like a, you know, I think you're a steward, right? In ens, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not a steward. So. Okay, I'm not a steward, but I'M the scribe for ensda. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm scribe and the delegate and the service provider. Yeah, like that would be my fourth title. Yeah, right. So my bad on that. But what I was going to say is like if you don't want to talk about this, that's fine. But I wanted to understand that whole thread regarding the open box investment. And so I think like the way I kind of read it was it's like a way for ENS to get down to like the protocol level for like Web2 platforms. Is that kind of like, like, is that what it was? Let me try to explain. Yeah. And, and, and parts of how this entire protocol will be built and implemented and the entire like the technical aspects around it are still, have, still haven't been discussed and this is still, I think the, the first proposal that will go live is going to be a social proposal to create a committee that will like do a, like a sign, whatever the necessary paperwork, the NDA and stuff to kind of discuss in private with the open books guys about the kind of the ins and outs of the proposal, how everything would look like, how everything would work, how like it would leverage ens where ENS can help, where ENS can, can you know, like help in any way and just basically discuss the terms of the entire like a five million dollar investment. So that's number one. But from what I know about the proposal and I know like a little so it builds on the, on the, on the event that, that is happening next year and that is I can till the auction where essentially after I think 12 or even 13 years, ICANN will allow basically anyone, not anyone, but like it's open pretty much for everyone to submit to run a top level domain. So you for example, or maybe announce can say like okay, we want to buy dot nouns, but official like dot nouns in the DNS root zone, fully I can compliant and you know, kind of like fully functional. Not the top level domains that are being issued by these, let's call them third party providers that are, you know, just minting them as NFTs and just trying to onboard people, you know what I mean? Like they can never resolve in a browser. Right? These are the, let's call them legit ones. So essentially what this proposal says is let's build a protocol that will allow every single like top level domain operator to tokenize their top level domain. So right now in ENS you can tokenize your domain. So I can tokenize for example namespace.com and it works as an ENS name so I can like use it to receive money. I can have the, you know, the resolver address for it for different whatever. Right. It's literally there's no functional difference with any other ENS name. But that's for like the domains. What this proposal does is essentially propose to create a protocol that will tokenize the top level domain. So think anyone who runs top level domain, maybe like a country called like us for Serbia for example, or like.com or.xyz or IO or AI or anything like essentially it would allow all of these people to tokenize those domains and next to offering them through like a traditional registration services like registrars like GoDaddy or Namecheap or whoever else, you would be able to essentially register them on chain through some providers. Maybe ENS integrates that, maybe namespace integrates that, maybe the guys that visually integrate the registration, domain registration and so forth. So it would essentially be minting domain on chain and minting it in the centralized database in a traditional way. So that's the premise of this proposal because next year, as I said, the ICANN TLD auction is happening and there's gonna be, I think it's gonna be a lot of bidding on who gets dot, crypto, wallet, dot. I don't know, DeFi or whatever. I don't know, some, some cool, some cool names that, that have emerged just out of like some emerging trends over the, over the last 10 years. And this icon event is like, it's a pretty special thing, man. It happens like over every 10 years or so. So like every 10 years you get a chance to get into this domain sort of like basically like a root zone and operate your top level domain. So a lot of people will apply. I think 10 years ago they had like around 2,000 applications. So like this year we could easily see like 5,000 or so. Wow. But we'll see. Not everyone gets accepted. Not everyone, you know, gets a name. You know, it costs $230,000 to apply for one top level domain. So if you want to apply for like 10, you need like $2 million. Yeah. So. It'S really complex actually to go through this and I think you have like more than 400 questions to answer during the application process. So it's very rigorous. Yeah, yeah. Oh, thanks for sharing that, man. Yeah, I could sense that it was like it had a potential to be a big deal. That's the next next big thing. I think. Yeah. That there's, there's nothing bigger. Yeah, no, that's exactly that, that's Like I was like looking at it and I was like, dude, this thing looks like it's gonna be huge. Yeah. And I, it was, it was good to see it like, like we're talking about it now essentially, like early or early for Web three. But yeah. Yeah. So thank you for kind of breaking that down. That, that gives me more, more homework to grow, learn some more. So now you know. So I think the next step, if you want to keep in, like involved with DNS dao, just track that proposal. And I think we're going to have, we're going to have a social proposal coming out pretty soon to vote on creating the committee that's going to look into this proposal like more in depth and basically come back with an answer like, should we invest or not? Which I hope they, they move forward with because I think it's a good investment for the dao. But yeah, maybe something interesting now you have a frame of kind of reference based on this conversation so you can kind of track it. So. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah. So I subscribe, like, I think I press followed and I was like, yeah, I definitely want to track this one. This one looks really cool. All right, so to wrap up mostly just because I have another call, like it's been a great, great conversation and thanks again for doing it. But it's a little bit of a weird one. So it used to be, I don't know if you're familiar with like tapas or pinchos from the Spanish, like culture, like in Spain. They're like little bite sized snacks. It's kind of like the best way to describe it. So a long time ago, like two, two plus years ago, when I got started with my content, it was supposed to be like bite sized pieces of Web3 news. That's where I got the idea from. And so it used to be called something completely different than what it's called now. But in honor of like keeping the same question. So I've asked everyone this, the same question, but what is your favorite snack? My favorite snack? Oh, real hard questions here. I don't know what it is. Don't say, don't say carrots and hummus. I know someone said that before, but. But those are not snacks. That's like healthy food. That's too healthy food. That's what I said. I was like, man, I was like, you're making me feel guilty for my snack. No, what's my. I'm trying to figure out, like, what's my kind of like a guilty pleasure. I love a Good cheesecake. I'm not going to lie. So that's one. But the first thing that came to mind, I just eat a lot of chips. But like, I don't know if you call them like chips, you know, like a. Yeah, yeah. Like Pringles things, whatever. I just love. I don't know why, but they just like give me sort of energy. But ever since I stopped sort of drinking coffee, I drink coffee like every now and then. Now. But ever since I started stopped drinking coffee, I just eat a bag of chips and it gives me like a boost. I don't know why. And I'll drink some coke and I'm good to go. I replaced a semi bad habit with two bad habits. Yes. That's, that's typically how I do it too, actually. I gave, I had the exact same thing as you. I actually gave up coffee for a year. So like every year I do like a challenge where I give up, I give up something and it's not meant to be fun. So I gave up coffee, like five. Oh, actually. Wow, that was a while back, like six years ago. Gave it up for a year. Yeah. And I picked up chips. I ate chips every day for like a year. And then, and then the next year I was like, okay, now I need to give up chips because this became an addiction. And you pick up like a Snickers bar or something. Exactly. Have you ever tried to quit sugar for like at least three months? Like, no sugar whatsoever. Not even through, like ketchup or like just zero sugar? Have you ever tried that? No, but I, I, I know I need to, man. I don't even, I don't even have like that much. I don't eat sugary stuff that often. Like, I don't drink soda. I don't eat candy. But like, as you know, things in America, like freaking ketchup has like, sugar in it. Like, everything's bad here. Essentially. Like, they're like, here's an apple and we actually added sugar to it. And you're like, great, thanks. Yeah, they do that now. Yes, they do that. Like, they modify the apples to produce, like, apple. Like all of the fruits, I think, like years ago had like a lot less like fructose in them. Yeah. Than they, they have now. But yeah, it is. Yeah. I need to do sugar for sure. You know, again, and that's coming from like a place of like, I don't really have a dish. I don't, I don't do a lot of added sugar. So I, I do have sugars. Like, like, I Eat apples and bananas and stuff like that. But, you know, if you don't eat, like, you know, kind of any sweets or something like that, then. Then I guess you're good. But I'll tell you something. Like, I thought I was addicted to coffee, but then I stopped taking sugar with my coffee. And then, like, my craving for coffee went away, and I realized it was the sugar underneath it that was, like, kind of making me just go and drink coffee. And when I quit sugar for, like, three months, just, like, literally zero sugar. Sugar. Like, even the breads that I. That I got, like, was like, those crunchy kind of breads, had some sugar in them but not too much. And I quit, like, ketchup. I clicked, like, everything. Like, literally zero sugar land. I didn't even. Like, occasionally I lit like a. Like a apple or something like that, but not even that. Like, that is the. The probably the most. I don't even know how to describe that experience. It's just like, it. Like you feel your insides starting to calm down. It's so strange. Like, you just feel like some kind of Zen, at peace. Like, you don't have the need to be, like, you know, like, to move quickly or to just, like, do anything. You just, like, calm. You experience calm. Calm for the first time ever. Like, I highly recommend just as a. As a. Like, it's almost like a psychedelic experience. Honestly, it's so crazy. I'm gonna have to do it. Yeah, I'll do it. Yeah, I definitely. I try not to get sugar in my coffee, but I do like milk in my coffee. Yeah. Yeah, me too. But, you know, milk has sugar in it too, you know, so it's like, like, natural sugar. So. Yeah. Yeah, I'll have to. I'll have to do that one year. I. I definitely should. For. For sure. That'll be a challenge. They're meant to be challenging. Like, that's gonna be a challenge. Yeah, it's meant to be challenging. I tried to choose something that's, like, supposed to be hard. It's not supposed to be like a walk in the park for me, you know, Like. Yeah, so that might be next year's then. I might have to give up sugar next year. I don't know if I could do a whole year. Maybe I'll start with, like, three months, like you said. Yeah, Three months is enough. Trust me. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Dude. This has been super fun. Yeah. Thank you for the invite. Yeah, no, thanks again for. For jumping on. Let me pause it for everybody. Foreign. If you're hearing this message that means you've listened to the entire episode, and for that I want to thank you for making it to the end. If you're listening to this episode on a platform other than pods, make sure to go to pods to collect this episode. If you are on pods, hey, thanks for being on here. Make sure to subscribe from your favorite Web2 app, including Substack or YouTube so you can get notified when these episodes drop. Before we head off, I wanted to. Do a cast off. So Cast off is the segment where I want to hear from you, the audience. So this week's cast off question is. What community would you like to see namespace comes to? So if there's for me it's nouns. Specifically I would love announce a subdomain. And if you don't have a favorite. Community, do you as a content creator. Or community builder or just web 3 person would love to see more subdomains. Let me know if you enjoyed this episode. Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever it is that you listen to your episodes. Just hit me up if there's any specific people or topics you'd like to see me covered in the newsletter or in the podcast. All right, see you guys on social. Media and see you guys next episode. And definitely make sure to check out the crowdfund and help me make more content for you. Peace.