Revolutionizing Governance: How Futarchy is Shaking Up the Crypto World with Proph3t from MetaDAO

This week we dive into the intriguing world of on-chain decision-making with our guest, Proph3t. In this episode, we explore the concept of Futarchy, a governance system that replaces traditional voting with trading in markets to make decisions. Proph3t, an engineer with a background in Ethereum Blockchain and smart contracts, shares insights into how Futarchy can be a game-changer for DAOs, enabling more rational decision-making by optimizing for token value. We also touch on the challenges and interesting developments within this innovative governance model, including the role of AI and prediction markets. Join us as we unravel this complex yet fascinating topic that’s gaining traction within the crypto community.

Learn more about Futarchy.

08:18 "Proposal Failure and Decision Strategy"

16:30 Optimizing for Future Metrics

19:40 DAO Proposal Voting Dynamics

22:57 Pricing Impact on Token Decisions

32:22 Optimizing Growth Through Futurchy

34:00 Governance Models: Dual Approach

46:22 AI Aggregation and Decision-Making

52:44 Prediction Markets Indicate Government Shutdown

57:56 Polymarket's Viral Strategy

01:05:04 ICO Incentive Misalignment Problem

01:10:37 Solana Presale Fraud Solution

01:17:20 Innovative AMM and Shared Liquidity

01:18:31 Blockchain Innovation Enthusiasm

Transcript

0:00

I mean, yeah, I think especially on Ethereum, token price is almost vilified where it's like, oh, who cares about token price? The only thing that really matters is the devs and shipping and whether you believe in the team and hodl and I don't really believe in that. Yo. Welcome back to another episode of behind the Screen with Graha, a podcast where we unravel the untold story of the best on chain builders and creators. I'm your host, Graho Unavo. Crypto enthusiast. It's been in the space since 2012. Yeah. So this week, this week we have a very exciting one. This one is pretty abstract to think about, so definitely bear with me. Crazy concept though regarding kind of decision making and governance. Easiest just to kind of say is like poly market for decisions is kind of like the best way to describe it. And an easy example to kind of think about as you're hearing all this is, you know, do you think the stock, the price of a stock is going to go up or down based on a decision? So an example it would be like if you fired the CEO and based on that information you make the decision. Yeah. So this is now happening on chain. This is Metadao. They are one of the first, or if not the first iteration of this idea on chain and on blockchain and really and in real life it's a concept called food turkey that's existed for a little over 20 years now, created by Robin Hansen. And yeah, now it's, it's live. They've been live for at least at the time of this recording, over five months. They've seen some, some pretty interesting stuff. It's a new concept. It's starting to get popular on the Ethereum side of things. Yeah. So hope you enjoyed this one as much as I did. Yeah. Let's dive in. Want to. I've been jazzed about this one for a hot minute, man. All right. Yeah. So let's dive in. Who is profit at? You know, obviously at a high level because I know that you're pretty. Yeah. So I'm an engineer. That's I guess what I would define myself as or maybe a programmer. I like to write programs, computer programs. But yeah, I, I, before I became profit. Some like brief background of myself is I used to write small smart contracts and Ethereum Defi. And then before that I wrote caching systems in Web two. Awesome. Yeah. I think. Were you doing mostly back end stuff or kind of like a little bit of everything? Yeah, all back end stuff actually. Metadao's front end is the first front end that I've ever written professionally. Which, yeah, you could see that in how bad the original front end was. Like. Yeah, the first front end that we had was just like abysmal. Someone, even someone in the Metadao community just like built their own. And then that front end for a while was the canonical front end that everyone used. Oh, I had no idea, man. I thought. Actually, I thought this front end that you have right now on your website right now was the one you built because I was like, wow, this is really good for like a V for your first time. No, yeah, I didn't. Although I did actually at one point it was pretty slow. The current front end, like price charts were taking like 5 seconds to load and I was like, okay, like, I'm an engineer, I'm sure I can figure out front end. So, yeah, I got in and learned xjs. And yeah, for optimized performance. I think when I was done, price starts were loading in like 400 milliseconds. So I was pretty happy with that because that's like twice as fast as Polymarket. So. Yeah. Yeah, good stuff, man. Yeah, it's honestly nuts. Better. DAO is actually. I mess around with a lot of apps and I would say that I really, actually enjoyed the way the Metadao front end looks right now. And it's really fast, like you said. Yeah, no, it's. It's good. Thank you. Appreciate that, sir. All right, so I think I know you get this probably a lot and I don't want to spend like a ton of time on explaining what futarky is because I feel like I'm going to reference a ton of material in the show notes. I've been talking to people like non stop about it, so I feel like I've probably annoyed enough people. But yeah, for anyone that doesn't know what futarchy is, can you give like a quick just TLDR on that one? Sure, yeah. So basic idea is we have voting. This is like a governance system where we all vote on what should happen. Also called democracy, Futarchy is a new kind of governance where you don't vote. Instead you bet or you trade in markets and it's actually those markets that make the decision. And so, yeah, you can kind of think of it as like prediction markets, but instead of prediction markets where you're predicting which event is going to happen, you're participating in decision markets where you're predicting which is the best action to take. That's awesome. Great explanation of It. Yeah. So again, I know that you probably have to explain that a lot. I'm going to reference definitely your, your breakpoint presentation. Vitalik has written about it like three or four times, so I'll reference that as well and a couple other things so people can definitely dive deep on it. Want to be respectful of your time. So all these things are. They all sound great when you read them in theory. Right? Has anyone ever tried to swing like a vote, if that makes sense, with either throwing a ton of money at it or the general issue with current dowses, a whale just owns a ton of a token or the underlying NFT for voting, so they're able to kind of just really outsize sway voting. Has anyone tried to do something similar with metadao? Sure. Yeah. So Ben Hawkins, who works for the Solana Foundation, I think right now he heads staking ecosystem or sorry, validator ecosystem. He at one point this is pretty on Metadao's history. He created a proposal to buy a bunch of the native token of Metadao, which is meta for below the spot price. So it was a bad deal for the Dao and a good deal for him. He wanted it to pass and he spent $250,000 in USDC bidding up the past market, which we can get into in a second of what that actually means, but essentially trying to manipulate the market in order to get it to pass. But yeah, it failed because when he, like when you bid up a past market, then people can be like, oh crap, I can sell to this guy at this like high price now. And then if the proposal passes, then I will have all this USD and I can use that to buy back in and increase my holdings because I don't think the price is going to be as high as where I'm currently selling to him. And so this game repeatedly played and eventually the proposal ended up failing. I feel like. Let me just add how it actually works because I think it's important to understand what I just said, how Feature Key works mechanically. Well, actually probably easier to understand in the context of decision making. If you think about decision making from first principles, anytime you make a decision, you have something you're optimizing for and then you evaluate each option you have by the value of what you optimize for, conditional on each option. So concretely an example would be if you're deciding what food to get, you're hungry, you're deciding what food to get and you're optimizing for your happiness, then you're evaluating like how happy Would I be if I got Chinese food? How happy would I be if I got Mexican food? How happy would I be if I got. I've now run out of potential foods. I can't think of any others. But yeah, you get the point. And then you pick the one that's with the highest value, like the highest happiness conditional on you doing that thing. So like if I'm happiest, if I'm happier conditional, or if I think I'm happy or conditional getting Mexican food, then I'm getting Chinese food, then I'm going to get Mexican food. And so in order for us to make decisions with markets, we need to get kind of that conditional value. So what we're optimizing for with our DOWs is mainly token price. We want number to go up, we want to increase the value of the token, like increase shareholder value, whatever. That's like the optimization, that's like the goal that we've selected. And so we need to evaluate what the market thinks the value of the token would be if we took each option. Generally today there's two options, which is like you can either accept the proposal or you can reject the proposal. And so what we create is conditional markets where you place a trade in a conditional market and that trade is only finalized if the condition is met. So say you buy one meta in a conditional on past market for $100, you put in 100 USDC and you get back one meta in this conditional market that means conditional and past market. That means that if the proposal passes, you will now that trade will have been executed and you'll now get one meta if the condition is not met. If the proposal does not pass, then you get your original USDC back. The market is essentially reverted. Everyone gets back what they put in. So the person who sold their META to you would get their META back. And then we do the same thing for market conditional audit failing. And then we select whichever option is higher. So yeah, if the market thinks that the token would be more valuable if you accept the proposal, then you accept it. If he thinks it more valuable if you reject the proposal, then you reject it. And so what Ben was doing is bidding up the past market. So he was essentially expressing the view in the market of if this proposal passed, I think META would be valued higher than the current spot price. And other people disagreed with him. They did not think that it would be higher conditional on the spot price. And so they like, they sold to his conditional bids where they were basically placing the bet. Like, yeah, if this passes, I I'd sell to him at this price and I'd be able to buy back for, for lower. And so that ultimately. And so the, the spot price, the price, the average price in the market of if this proposal passed was not in fact higher than the average price of the proposal. Average price of the market conditional and failing. And so it failed. I know that's like a lot of words. It's a new system. It takes some time to get used to. But yeah, that's, that's what happened. I know that. I know that for me, it took me a hot second to the, to wrap my head around it and I'm glad to see that like, at least, like as of today, the optimism fujarki like testing has started. So I feel like it's gonna. Oh, really? Yeah. So it's going to be like. I mean, I'm sure there are other players. You, you're probably more involved and deeper in it, so you can keep me honest, but I'm sure there are other players in the futarky space. You're just the biggest one that I'm aware of at least. But as it starts, you know, proliferating more on the east side of things and more da start using it as well, I think that it's going to become like, very normal. Like you said, it sounds crazy. It sounds different for sure, at least than what I'm used to, like from nouns and stuff. So, yeah, if anyone out there is listening and they want to test it, because I'm one of those people that learns a little bit better just by doing it sometimes versus the theoretical. But it, yeah, it's, it's fun and definitely very different, but very fun. Let's see, what was I going to say? Kind of sticking with that idea of like the theoretical versus like in real life applications of it. Since you're kind of on the front line, has there anything, like, have you learned anything about these systems or this system and like way of governance or decision making that you thought like it would be a certain way, like on paper. And then when, you know, when it came to actually doing in real life, it just surprised you or things were, you know, you know, you just learned something. Like you're like, okay, yeah, I mean. I think one thing that I wasn't. And that's cool, by the way, on optimism, actually. Yeah, I'm, I'm aware that they're doing that, but I didn't know it started today. So that's cool. That actually means that we're no longer the only live feature Key implementation, but. Which I guess is bittersweet, but. Well, they're. They're in beta, so if that makes you feel any better, it's. It's. It's a beta one and it's like beta tokens and all that too. So I think they're just trying. It's not real money. Yeah, it's not real money. So they're trying to get kind of used to the idea of how it works and then also kind of cleaning up the front end so it's clear to people what's happening, what they're agreeing to, which I think your platform does really well. Like, hey, you know, put in 100 bucks on the buy. Like, this is what's happening. And then I think even when I executed my first, like, pass or whatever, I think I even went to your discord and I was like, hey, like, do I have to, like, check this in or cash it in or whatever? You know, Like, I think they're working through that part right now. So it's not real money yet. So I think you could still say you're the only ones for now. Yeah, they're getting there. I'll say. That's so cool. I want to check out their front end to see how they display it. I've kind of gotten obsessed with, like, best way to display the turkey information because it's not trivial. I'll send it to you. Yeah, no, it's not true. Appreciate that. I'll send it to you so you can look at it. You won't be able to do anything, but, like, you'll at least be able to poke around and see, like, what it is. Yeah, yeah. So any kind of, like, surprise learnings from, you know, from theory to. In real life practice? Yeah, one has been that I think I did not realize at the, like, at the start, I think I viewed. Okay, well, yeah, to come back to, like, future, you have to pick an objective function. Like, you have to pick something you're optimizing for. I said earlier, we mainly optimize for token price. But if you read Robin Hansen's writings on Futurkey, he talks a lot about the other kinds of futurchi, where you can optimize, like, optimizing for other metrics. I mean, what he's talking about is, like, at the level of governments, which obviously, like, governments don't have token price. It'd be kind of weird if a government was solely optimizing for the index of their stock, like their stock ETF, like the US for the S&P 500 and so you need to pick some other metric that's like happiness of citizens or is like a proxy for that. And that's. At first I thought that would work pretty well and that both were kind of valid. But over time I've just been convinced by practice because we run both kind of markets that token markets are just like very, very good. Umber Research actually put out a post about futurchy as joint ownership, as a trustless joint ownership mechanism where they talked about how, because you're trading your tokens in these conditional markets, one property of that is that in order for a proposal to pass, all of the or the people who support that proposal have to buy out the dissidents of that proposal, the people who do not like that proposal at a premium to the spot price. And so that's like a pretty nice property for you as a token holder that for the team or contributors on the ground to do something that you believe is very minus ev minus bad enough for you to, to make you want to sell your tokens, they actually have to buy you out for it to happen at a premium to the spot price at a premium. So basically above where you value the token conditional and it happening. And yeah, it's pretty nice. It means that token futurity is pretty good at dealing with 51% attacks, which is like a big problem with token voting Dows. Right? Like if, say there's like $100 million in a Dow treasury, if I can acquire 51% of that DAO, I can just rug the rest of the token holders and create a proposal to transfer all that money to myself and pass it. Whereas with feature key you would actually have to buy out all those other people like the 49% at a premium to the spot price, which is going to be hard for you to do. So. Yeah, I think I didn't appreciate that fact at the start. Yeah, I think that's what, what's kind of been selling me on it is if you recall, we were talking about kind of like nouns Dao and like how, how many votes we're doing like per week, per month, per day kind of thing. And you can imagine, you know, it's like a lot of the, the same things we see in real life, you know, so we'll, we'll sometimes get like props. Well, you know, they're going to talk about and this is like me being kind of, I guess more cynical about it as a newer person, but essentially like, you know, there's some props that like put aside like the Public goods. Like we want to build a well in Africa and you know, we're just going to build it like we don't need the price of the token to go up to, to do that. Like we just, we're going to do it because we want to. But we do have some proposals where like we'll say like hey, our front end to or like our auction mechanic needs, needs some work smart contract and we need to do this because if we do this it will have a better buying experience and of the better buy experience then we'll have you know, more auction revenue coming in, blah blah blah and you know, people will vote yes, no on that like to, to give someone like you know, 300k, 500k like which I think is a lot of money in my opinion to work on some stuff. Definitely not like a little bit amount of money. But you notice very quickly I'm used to it from the procurement side of things where even if you know who you want to do the work for you, you could still kind of go pressure test some of these prices with other teams and you see some favoritism. Essentially this person knows this person and this person happens to have 10 of the tokens so they're able to sway the vote in a certain direction really quickly. Or it can look like if you get like two, three big people to vote in your favor, it can look very quickly like everyone is voting for this thing to pass. Or you can kind of lose like your motivation. You could be like oh, like what's the point of voting against if this thing's going to pass regardless, you know, so you might not even vote at all which is all like things that shouldn't happen like in a voting democracy or in a dao essentially. Like like you said they, they should, they should pay a premium on that, you know, if they want to get it. So I don't know, it just seems like such a clean method and methodology like you said. And it's. Some of the props that we get is like to make it, it's supposedly because it's going to make the price go up of the underlying value of the token or the nft. But nobody is actually putting a price to that. You know, like we're like ah, like we're trying to do something at the Milan Art Festival. This is actually like a real prop at the Milan Art Festival, like Design Festival. And we think if we are over there and we're present like it's going to bring awareness to nouns and all that. But the moment you have to put money into it. If you're saying like, hey, I have a million of this noun token and I'm putting up like my vote that this isn't going to increase the price, you know, like 500,000 tokens, people would think about it twice, you know, or they would vote differently, in my opinion. Versus like they have nothing to lose. Right. Other than friendships. I guess. So it's interesting. So like just stuff like that, like. I see. Yeah, it's like a cleaner system like you said. Yeah, let's see. Yeah, I guess that kind of goes into this next question of like what do you. How do you think, like the relationship between majority. I guess you kind of went into it a little bit with the 51 attack between majority and minority stakeholders and how like futarchy is like a better system for like minority stakeholders essentially. Right, Yeah. I mean you essentially. I mean you can have whales try to gang up and collude to do stuff, but you can always exit. Right. You can always sell. They have to buy you out. They have to like fork over USD in order for the proposal to go the way they want to do because they weigh. They wanted to go as opposed to just like collude and then. Yeah, they get to decide what happens. Yeah, exactly. I mean, how many. I'm curious. And nouns though, like, how many people, like, is the supply concentrated enough that like, I don't know, three people can get together and pretty much guarantee that a vote will pass? Or is it like. Yeah, how many people. How many people do you think are sufficient to collude in order to get like pretty much any vote passed? Less than five. Less than five. Wow. Yeah, for sure. Less than five. You know, I don't think two. Two of the wallets that I would say two of the wallets don't usually use that power for that reason. So the way that announced out kind of works is like every tenth Dow or every tenth. Noun. Sorry. Goes back to the treasury or the. To the Dow wallet essentially. And it's to kind of in perpetuity too, which is kind of nuts. So that wallet specifically has like, you know, we're at like noun. What are we at Noun. Now to the DOW wallet. So to the Dow wallet. Does someone control the Dow wallet or is it literally in the. On chain treasury? It's like in the treasury, but technically someone does control it like a multi sig. Oh, so we're at. We're a noun 1443. So in the treasury there are. So as you can imagine, there's at Least a couple hundred, I would say, in this wallet. So hypothetically, I mean we would, we would honestly need to have, we would need to have almost everyone voting to be able to like undo this one wallet. Yeah. On the super contentious proposals, how many nouns are voting? Yeah, I could tell you. And, and this is what, and the reason why I know it's less than 5 is because we had something where a lot of people were voting. They weren't voting no because they didn't agree. It was like they were voting no because they thought the prop didn't have enough information. So a lot of people were voting with responses saying like, hey, we're just voting no, not because we think it's a no, but no, because we actually just, just don't even know what this is for. Like if you come back, like we'll actually like vote with like real thinking behind it. I think it was. Let's look. Sorry for anybody listening, but Prop 662, which was the Duna one, it had over 300 votes. Okay. So you basically need like call it like 200ish. Yeah. Just to control the vote. Yeah, essentially. Yeah. So I could tell you right now there was so Most people have one and two. There's one wallet that has 22. So there's one wallet. Okay. So the nounders have 64. Okay. That's like the main treasury wallet. So between this one person and nounders, that's 22 plus 64, that's 86. And then. Okay, that's not that bad. Yeah. And then there's this other wallet that votes pretty consistently that has 37, but they're mostly delegated. Oh, okay, got it. So but people choose to delegate to that one. So it's like no one's being forced to be people that are like too busy and they, they just delegate to like a council of people. So yeah, it's not too bad. But yeah, I mean, yeah, hypothetically like less than 5. I think it gets you pretty far. Do you feel like your vote matters? I think it does for a lot of this like day to day prop. I think it did matter when we did that do no. 1. I personally didn't feel like I was slighted, but I do know that there was a subset of people that essentially wanted to rage, quit. So like this Duna to them was like the antithesis. Well, the antithesis of the being in web 3. Like they don't believe in having like a legal entity. So that kind of vote was like a no to them was like no, no one Setting it up and no one like, like I want to get out essentially. So kind of like the buyout, they. Should have sold the pass if only. Deep turkey. I know, exactly. So that's, that's what I remember when we were talking. I was like that's, that's the one where I was like yeah, it would have been perfect for, for that because it was very contentious. Sorry, I just realized that you wanted V. Yeah. All right. So we talked about the price of the coin or the underlying access being like the right objective. Do you know, do you feel like there are any trade offs with kind of with that model of prioritizing like token price go up? I mean I don't know if there are many. Well that's. It's wrong with people I guess. Yeah, some people at least. I mean yeah, I think especially on Ethereum, token price is almost vilified where it's like oh who cares about token price. The only thing that really matters is the devs and shipping and whether you like believe in the team and hodl and I don't really believe in that. But yeah, I mean it is kind of a philosophical question of what you are trying to achieve. I'm like pro. I would like there to be lots of wealth in the world. I would like many, like everyone to be able to have enough stuff so that they don't have to work work. And that requires token price go up at a global scale. That requires us to produce lots and lots of stuff so that we can all have goods at cheap prices. And some people are not interested in that. Some people are interested in to your point about the African wealth, some people are interested in transferring wealth and other things that don't make the proverbial token price go up. So yeah, I mean there are definitely trade offs in that. Like there is no. It's a philosophical question of what you want to happen. The only thing that we can say is like when you're optimizing for this, you're optimizing for growth. And so like over time you would expect like so say that say the tokens that adopt futy have like a return or say that just enterprises that adopt futurity earn like a 20% return on invested capital and enterprises that don't adopt futurity earn like a 5% return on invested capital. As in like yeah, the projects that adopt future on average build better products that earn higher revenues and higher cash flows that then can get reinvested. That means that just over time you expect the ones that optimize for token price to go up to outcompete or the ones that have the higher return of capital to compete, the ones that don't outcompete the ones that don't and just grow bigger. I guess there are trade offs but this just seems the most sensible metric on many dimensions. Yeah, I would, I would agree with you. Like I also do think that for anyone, I do think you could run both and I know that we've seen that too in the Solana space where like which is cool like Jupiter Dao. Or. Even Cloud, you know, like you could have both sets of governance models kind of going side by side, you know. Like I know the Jupyter team did one like for the logo which was kind of funny because that's like a lower stakes one I would say versus like hey, like the one they just did recently. Is it Jupyter? Oh no, it was Drift Protocol that I was thinking about. But yeah, like what I'm trying to say is I think you can kind of have both. Like that's what I've been kind of kicking in my head for a while now since I started researching this a little bit more is like at least for like nouns and I go back to nouns because it's like the one that I'm like the most familiar familiar with. It's also like a very active on chain on the Ethereum side dow without getting into the protocol L1 kind of ones or L2s where you can have both the things that are public goods. It's kind of like how we function as humans. Like I could be like look, I'm going to put 10% of my salary into donating, you know, to donate. You know, you don't need that to go up or down. You know, like you don't even need it. It's just a line item in your budget, you know. But for all these other things I needed to go up like the underlying asset. You know, like if I'm, if I'm banking on a builder or a team and they're, and they're claiming that they can make the token price go up, they should get measured by that measurement from that KPI. I don't see why that would be a bad thing. Yeah, if someone's telling me like hey let me build you a slick app or a cool website, give me a quarter of a million dollars and I promise you it's going to go make your click rate through go up then yeah, let's measure them on that KPI. You know, like let's Measure them on that delivery. So yeah, for sure. So I think you could have both essentially, is what I was trying to say. Unless it's like a. I don't know, like if they're not doing anything philanthropic or something like that then. Or they don't care to do that then. Yeah. You know, even can go full. Full turkey on that one. Let's see. I actually. Personal story about philanthropy was. I. Yeah. So like effective altruism I think is like a somewhat effective nerd snipe. And I, I was like, oh yeah, this is. This kind of makes a lot of sense. Like if you're trying to give like the purpose of donating is just to increase the total number of like utils in the universe. Like the total number of happiness in the universe. And like we're. Most of us are like poorly allocating that money towards like people slash causes that are around us instead of wherever they're the best spent. And so I gave some percentage of my. I got like a RSU granted and I gave some percentage of that to this effective altruist charity, giving it to like yeah, villagers in Kenya or something like that. And I realized after I sent the money and like over the following months, like I really did not get any utility out of that transaction. And really what most people are doing when they're giving to charity is not actually, is not like, is not trying to increase the total amount of happiness in the universe. They're trying to feel good themselves. And yeah, I don't really know where I'm going with this other than. Well, I guess I'm just saying even what we think of as terrible causes are a lot of the times really just us optimizing for our own number go up. Yeah, no, I could see that actually where I think one of the cool things about blockchain overall, especially like in that nonprofit sector, the feeling good sector is at least like what sells me on an on chain nonprofit is being able to see how they spend their funds. Like, like the fuzzies in me are higher than like, you know that it. Because I like you. Like, I'm like, I've given a thousand dollars to. I'll give you an example. I've given a thousand dollars to like just a regular generic non profit for first generation students going to university like myself. And that was cool. And then I gave it to another one that was like more local to me and they literally like sent me a picture and like a picture of like the MacBook Pro of like the donation that I gave like money like, they showed, like, they basically showed me the receipts, which sounds super cheesy, but like, I was like, oh. Like I could actually see like the legit impact of like, what, you know, like what it is that I do. Yeah. Made it tangible for you. Yeah, like, it made it like, more legit, you know, and that felt better than the other one. I don't know. And it could all for all I know. But like, the cool thing that I think about, like with. On, like with blockchain is that is like, if there's a. I know there are platforms out there that are working on this to make it see, like, make it very transparent. Like, transparent to you. Like where the money is going, what it's being spent on, and if they're even running it as a dao. Like, and you have some level of like, influence where you could be like, hey, maybe it's not wells in Africa, but maybe it's like wells in Central America. I don't know. You know, like, then you're like, you got more skin in the game or whatever. And it'll be more fulfilling too, like, to you. Like, it is kind of funny to think about non profits as like businesses that are in the business of taking your dollars and then selling you warm and fuzzies only the main difference between them and like normal businesses just, they're all bootstrapped. There's no like, investor capital. Yeah. And I mean, some nonprofits even reach the stage of like, like actual legit businesses, like FIFA, like the FIFA World cup organization. Like, they're a non profit, but. Oh, really? Yeah, but they give out Rolexes to like their executive. So, you know. So you have that too. Yeah, it actually, I don't know, maybe I'll. I'll drink one day a little bit more heavily and then I'll see if I can think of a futarchy method of putting that to daos, like non profits, you know. All right, I know that there was like. I think it was you that mentioned this or maybe it was Vitalik and I was reading the post, but it was like, regarding traditional legal methods and kind of like resolving disputes have food. Turkey could also be a more efficient system for that. Maybe it was like an article from Robert Hansen, but I was trying to wrap my head around this because I come from like the legal space on how this could solve disputes faster. Do you have anything? I mean. Yeah, like, I think the earlier example of the 51% attack is a great example of that. So like, yeah, regular businesses, like companies listed on Nasdaq and the New York Stock Exchange. They all have. They all have to follow these rules around shareholder protection rights. And yeah, like, you need to follow these rules, whereas you can just, like. And that's one way of solving the problem. Whereas Futarchy is just like a more mechanistic way of solving the problem where you like, no longer have constraints. Like you no longer put people in jail essentially for. Or like, find them externally for doing things you don't want to do. You just, like, depend on the incentives of the system itself to, like, achieve the behavior you want, which is that. Which is the minority. Minority holder is not going to exclude over. Okay. Yeah, yeah, man. I could tell, like, you've, like, you're. You, like live this like your. Your brain's. I do, yeah. Yeah. I like, sometimes dream about ways that we can improve the UI and like, make it more accessible. Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah, no, it's great. And I think for other people too, because when we were talking, you've been in the space for a while too, and by being in the space a while, you sort of start thinking about crypto overall on all facets of your life. Yeah. Anyways, long window way of saying, like, you're definitely, like, thinking about Futarchy on just a bunch of different levels. I think that most people aren't there yet. Like, at least applicable, like resourcing versus just like the theoretical. All right, let's take a quick break. I hope you're enjoying the episode. This episode was made possible with the support of my premium subscribers, Seattle Dog, Mac Vinyls, the Bluffer, Nonlinear, Brennan and Branson. If you'd like to receive exclusive drops, access to toky gated content or just be an overall cool person that continues letting me do cool things on train, make sure to subscribe to my hypersub. I'll put the link below. And before we go back, I want to switch it up on you guys. Usually we do the cast off at the end, but this week I'm going to do cast off in the middle. So for those not familiar, cast off is the segment where I want to hear from you, the audience. So this episode's cast off question is, what do you think about food turkey so far? Is this something you think can work, making decisions this way? Or is it all kind of just theoretical crypto kind of things, just us being ourselves? Yeah, let me know. Either via Telegram, Twitter or Farcaster. I'm curious to. To hear your thoughts on what you think about Futurke so far. Make sure to also stick around to the end. I'll be sharing some details around some giveaways for the 25th episode of this podcast. So yeah, just make sure to stick around to then. All right, let's get back to it. See you. AI is kind of like the, the big hot thing right now. At least like from my neck, my neck of the woods with like Farcaster. Like AI is like crazy in terms of like on chain AI. But yeah, AI as a whole, I think I'd say most people, it's on their radar for sure. How do you view like the relationship between AI and futurchi? Like, have you thought about how those things can kind of work together or not work together? Yeah. So to some extent, I'll start with they are competitive in that they're both kind of machines for aggregating information and making decisions, right? Like you could ask a few turkey to make your governance decisions. You could also theoretically feed all your business information into an AI and then have it make the decision. But I'm actually, I more see Feedarchy as an aggregated aggregation layer for AIs because like, yes, so in the world where we don't have a single AI model that ingests all the world's information, then we're going to need some way of aggregating different AIs opinions and selecting which ones are the better models. And also we need to have incentives to surface new information, right? Like if you ask ChatGPT without giving any context on nouns dao like what decision it should make on a get. Like if you just feed a proposal into it and then like, and you're like make a decision, it's not going to have all the information around nouns that is necessary context to make that decision. It'll just have what's given to it in the proposal. And so you both need a way of aggregating information and you also need a way of deciding which AIs are better and giving them more voting power, you can call it. Or like decision making power. And future is actually pretty, I think like a pretty good system for that. Because if you think about it, AIs are kind of like are should be, maybe already are, but I'm not aware of if people are using them at a professional level yet much. But they'd certainly you think about it. An AI model is something that can be awake 24 7. It can aggregate all the information on the Internet, the public Internet at least. And it doesn't have emotions, right? Like, not at least in the same way we do. And so like it's in many ways it's kind of a perfect trader. And you would expect over time the amount of discretionary, like the amount of trades made by AI to go up a lot. And so, yeah, one way to envision petarchy is just as this aggregation layer where different AIs compete against each other to make the better decision. And then it's just the market in the end that determines whether they're right. And just naturally, because it's a market, those who are right make more money and then have more sway in future decisions. And those who are wrong lose money and have a lot less sway in future decisions. Yeah, I like that because, yeah, it would be interesting. I even find myself doing this now where like sometimes I don't like the response I get from one of the models. And then I'll be like, all right, let me put it through. Like when Deep SEQ was like rolled out recently, I didn't like the anthropic or like the open AI one, but then I would run it through Deep Seek and that gave me a better answer. So it'd be interesting, like you said, like if each model did its own homework, essentially came back and they all had probably similar answers, but one is better. But we have to decide on it, you know, like, right as humans, like, which answer we like the most. Which is not non trivial. Right. Like it's very like, think about Jupiter as an aggregator. Like Jupiter can very easily. I mean, it's, it's not an easy. I don't want to make it sound like it's an easy engineering challenge, but at least in your head you can kind of say all it really has to do is just look at all the prices of the pools across Solana. And then if you're trying to swap USDC for Sol, it just has to find the cheapest pool or split your trade in the cheapest way. Whereas here, how do you evaluate how good an IM model is? There's not one clear metric that you can point to. Yeah, that's exactly, exactly. Yeah. And I don't know where I was going with that. It was more just like a thought and. Well, yeah, I mean, I think futurkey, is that means of, means of like measuring just by. Yeah. What's their, what's their return? Are they like beating the market or are they underperforming? Yeah. Are they smarter or are they dumb? Yeah, no, agreed. Yeah, I think that's, I think that's spot on because you could almost be like, here are the five answers that we got which one do we like the most and run like a decision on that? Yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's interesting. The other thing about, like, if you think about. Because you could also try to build some company that aggregates AI models. But yeah, the problem is like, the market itself is not just aggregating existing models, it's also providing an incentive to surface new models and like, new information. So, like, yeah, if, like, I think once decision markets take off, there will be an incentive for. Yeah. If you can find out a better way to make decisions. And you're just like a guy who lives in the middle of nowhere and doesn't really know anyone in AI. But like, you understand, like, you have some alpha, some insights, then you can just apply that insight and start making money. And then through you applying that insight through you trading in the market, you're like, already helping people make better decisions without having to go through some centralized process. So it's kind of like. Yeah, it's just nice from a lot of perspectives. Yeah, that's interesting. Now my brain's like. Because I know, like, when I first was like, reading about futuri, my brain went to and like, if italic was also calling this out, like, I even got my wife to do this a little bit about like, the government shutdown mostly, like using the predictions market as like a signal, you know, like, even if you don't participate, it's still valuable to know, you know, 70% of people in polymarket think the government's going to shut down on like, X State. And like the size of like, that pool is like, I don't know, a couple hundred thousand dollars. I'm like, hey, they're not just betting that because they want to lose money. Like, yeah, you know, like, someone has to win. You know, like the people that are saying it's going to close on the, like, it's going to shut down on this date and they're putting sizable amounts like, like it's done a decent job at least with this last election at predicting, like, outcomes. Yeah. And that's actually, that's not just the last election thing. Like, prediction markets have been running for a while. So like, since 1984, we've had the. Or between 1984 and 2004, we had the Iowa Electronic markets. We've also had like, predicted and other prediction markets. And then actually before I believe, 1945, the US also had presidential betting markets. And yeah, like, all the, like. Yeah. The empirical evidence is essentially that those betting markets are historically better upholsters are Predicting who's going to win the election. Man, that's awesome. I did not know that at all. So thank you for sharing that. For sure. Appreciate that. No, and yeah, like I said, one. Can also just to like trust but verify. Like, yeah, you can read all the sources in Robin Hansen's paper, like, because, yeah, this is great evidence for him obviously of like markets being good. Yeah, yeah, 100. Yeah, I think I need to definitely spend more time reading that. Like I said, I know you're, you're like deep in it. So like you've, you've been thinking about it. Is there anything like that? Like good founders, you know, they sometimes use like other companies like to learn from them, you know, like either successes or limitations or anything like. But is there anything like. Since a lot of people have heard of Polymarket at this stage, is there anything like you, when you look at polymarket, whether you think it's a success or not a success, is there anything that informs you about what they're doing and whether it's like at the UI or philosophically or the types of people you want to onboard into Futurchi, which we could get into a little bit with Mountain Dao in a second. Yeah. Is there anything like. Or are you just solely focused on what you're building and don't look towards kind of other players in the space? Oh, no, yeah, I definitely do. I mean, yeah, I think polymarket is a great, great product. If you've traded on other prediction markets, you can just. Yeah, like you can tell Polymarket cares far more about their traders. Like on some of these prediction markets, like I was trading on Kalshi and I was almost wondering like, do the people who run this thing, do they even trade in these markets? Because there's just like so many things like for example, the way they resolve the markets or like the, the time like Polymarket they resolved the presidential election markets back when the, like the person was elected, Trump was elected, Couch did not resolve it until inauguration. Maybe there's something like legal constraint. There's. But that just like sucks as a trader because then you have to exit it. If you, if even if you're right, you, if you don't like holding this inventory, especially if you've traded on one market and then not on the other, or you've traded on both markets to like arb the two, then you now have a tax liability on one side. So you just can't wait until the next year and you've got to sell like 98 cents a dollar anyway. Sorry, didn't mean to rag on Cal Sheet more, just say like, yes, Polymarket is a great product. I think I learned a lot from just their core UI ux. Like literally how their website functions. I think it's like very instructive. And also. And you can see the like, yeah, Metadata's UI is pretty inspired by Polymarket. And then also their go to market like polymarket's go to market strategy, as I understand it, is using the information output by the markets as like talking pieces to that get people on Twitter talking about polymarket. Like, yeah, if they say if they can post a picture of like the odds on. On some market have gone to some unexpected way in a way that people will talk about like during the presidential election, for example, just posting like what are the current odds on the markets, then people are obviously going to talk about that. Like if Trump is up in a day, then people who support Trump are going to quote, tweet and be like, yeah, look like our boy is winning or whatever. And the inverse also true. Maybe not those words. And yeah, so I think yes, Polymarket is awesome. I really respect like what they've built and I am, I do learn a lot from them. And just like all the other, I think all the prediction market products when we're designing our ui, I'll pull up every sex. All the prediction markets and not just every sex, but usually I'll look at all the different variations. Binance for example, has the spot market and then they also have perps and those UIs look different. So, so yes, like I definitely veer towards like taking what works and then improving upon it or like taking that inspiration as opposed to trying to build something like totally original. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it's so funny. Like a couple thoughts on that. Yeah, I. I actually did a different kind of prediction market that I was like testing recently on the base ecosystem and totally feel you on the like there being like a delay from like the actual results. So like it was like for a soccer game and this, the game was done. So I just assumed naturally, like, I don't know, like within the hour. Yeah, like, yeah, be resolved in like an hour. And I had to like check in like three days later. Like three days later. It was like, congrats, you won. And I was like, what the. Like, I was like, dude, I assumed I got rugged. Like, yeah, that's for UX for sure. Like the game, the game was done three days ago. Like they didn't like. And it's like soccer, you know, it's like it gets figured out. Like there was. It's a sporting event. Like, it gets figured out then, you know, anyways, so. Totally feel you on that one. Also, Hyper Liquid, I think. Yeah, polymarket and Hyper Liquid are like my go to. Yeah. Like good UIs that I like want to take from. Yeah, Hyper Liquid is. I haven't really messed with this so much, but like I keep seeing. And this goes to your second point, which is like sharing, um, which I think a lot of like crypto apps kind of miss out a little bit on is like. And hyperlips, like really good at this is like basically like you could place your bet or, you know, like whatever decision you've made and then like when you place it, it like prompts you to like, share it kind of. And so like, it sort of introduces like a like a little viral like, marketing kind of perspective from it. So I've seen a couple people post it like on Forecaster where they're like, hey, I was short on eth or like the whole crypto market and now they're like super up because everything crashed today except for Meta, which is good. Did it not go down today? Yeah, I think it did, but maybe not like, dude, it didn't go down like some of my other stuff, but it was it like so like they have like a picture and like how you'd like, decided. So I think like, some apps are missing out on that. But yeah, Hyper Liquid is the one that I saw coming up on my feed a lot and I was like, oh, that's cool. Like they make it so it's like easy for you to start up a conversation with other people that maybe aren't in Hyper Liquid. And even if you're not going to go into Hyper Liquid and place that same bet or, or you are, it still like starts a conversation, you know, like, they're sharing it. So like, you could be like, I don't agree with you or I agree with you. So have you thought about implementing something like that with. With Meta? Yeah, we've thought about it. It's always about like. So for us, the turkey and metadao are like pre PMF products or ideas. And. And so like, I want to operate, I want to optimize for nimbleness instead of feature richness because the more features we add, the harder it is to then pivot to new ideas like Launchpad or metric markets. And so yeah, it's like, it's more about what is the 20% of features that provide 80% of the value. Like, let's build those. I think. Yeah, I. I may. Yeah. I think actually right now we have a leaderboard. It may be the leaderboard is actually not in the 20% and that sharing is. But yeah, we've considered it. Just want to be like, yeah, optimize more for shipping speed and ability to pivot than like feature richness yet. But yeah, definitely on the roadmap. Yeah, no, that makes sense. I get that. Yeah. I want to spend a little bit of time before we kind of wrap up with. Let's talk about Launchpad. I know you've secured your first kind of like, customer, I guess, or partner to experiment and do Launchpad, which is going to be. Which was a prop that got submitted in Metadao and it passed. People were able to participate kind of in futuri fashion. Yeah. Let's talk about Mountain Dao. What it is they do. You know, why you think they're like a great partner to be the first ones to do this. Launchpad. Sure. Yeah. So Mountain Dao. Well, yeah, the, the core idea of Launchpad is what if we make like, let's make ICOs actually work. Because ICOs is a really freaking cool idea. Right? Like global capital formation. Global, like instant capital formation. It was part of the reasons, part of the reason that brought me to crypto, because that's not just like, not possible today. And the problem with ICOs was that you had a team that would raise, like, the more successful the ico, ironically, the worse the incentives for the people to actually work on the project. Right. Because if you raise like $20 million, which plenty of these projects did in ETH, and you have only sold off, say, 5% of the token supply, then if you just hold on your tokens and rest invest, then you're going to have a large amount of value accruing to your name, which is kind of like a perverse incentive to not really grow and instead just rest on your laurels, which is a lot of what happened actually, after ICOs. And yeah, so the way it works is that they. There's 10 million tokens. So, yeah, so founder comes up with an idea and then they raise this idea. And then anyone over the period of seven days can fund that idea by putting in USDC to this pool. And at the end of seven days, 10 million tokens are distributed pro ra to all the people who put in USDC. So, yeah, if you put in, say, 1% of the USDC, you would get 1% of 10 million, which is 100,000 tokens. And then that's where all the initial tokens come from. There's no pre mine. Well, actually, okay, so one other thing you do is you take 10% of the USDC and you pair that against an additional 1 million tokens in a liquidity pool just so that people can have liquidity on day one. But other than that, there's no pre mine, which means that if the founder wrecks, the founder just walks away on day one. Then anyone can raise a proposal to liquidate the treasury and distribute USDC back to everyone invested. So basically everyone gets back the money that they put in. Which is not what happens with ICOs or not what happens with like NFTs where it's like, oh, we minted out. Oh, the founder died. Right. So. So that's the core mechanism. And yeah, Mountain Capital will be the first project to launch, which is going to be the first the Turkey and government governed investment fund. Think like The DAO of 2015 only governed by Futurchy. And yeah, so the basic idea is like they're going to be. Money will go into this and then that will go like invested in projects that they like raise to the to the Dao and people will like trade on whether or not those are worthy projects. And so yeah, that's why I'm like excited about that partnership is. Well like I think it'll just be a good trial run. And yeah, I've known. I mean, Metadow really took off at Mountain Dao, like the events. Well, yeah, so for context, Mountain Dao is like an event in the slugging ecosystem that runs for a month long. And the previous Mountain Dao is for Metadow really took off and it kind of made sense for them to be like the first launch. Yeah, I know that I found out about Mountain Dao through, through you posting and in the Metadow like Twitter account I believe too. Like just a. I think like now I get exposed to a lot more stuff that you engage with. So somehow I came in through like I saw it because I'd never heard of Mountain Dao before and it looks super sick. I was like, this looks freaking amazing. Yeah, that's great. You should come. I got jealous. I was like, damn. And then I started asking people, I was like, yo, does Ethereum have a Mountain Dow equivalent? Like, where are we at, guys? Zuzalu. Yeah. And someone's like, I don't think so. And I was like, man. I was like, this is because, like, it's funny. Like I'm in. There's this whole like Ethereum something Solana thing going down on Twitter, and it cracks me up because I'm like, the Ethereum folks are trying to be higher than thou, and they're like, nothing real of substantial use other than Pump Fun is happening in Solana. And I'm like, no, dude, I've been spending a lot more time on Solana. And I'm like, they're doing some cool shit over there. I always bring up your. Your company, and. And then I was like, yeah, man, they got Mountain down. Like, what the. What are we doing over here? Anyways, Mountain is, like, super cool. Really great. It's always the people who are working on eth. Infrastructure projects that, like, have raised $100 million and have not shipped the product to that, like, are shitting on Pump Fund, which I think is hilarious. I know. And then meanwhile, pump funds just, like, wiping their tears away with all the money. I know they get mad, and I'm like, dude, can't get mad. Clearly, they're doing well. Whether you agree with them or not, they're actually extremely profitable for a Web3 company, which is rare. And they solve a real problem right on Solana. In last March, we had this thing called pre Sales, which was just like, yeah, you send money. I don't know if you were here during this, but, yeah, you just sent money to a salon address and then prayed that they send you tokens. And, yeah, as one would expect, some people just took the money and ran off with it, which, like, say what you will about Pump Fun. Like, I think, yeah, rugging. Different people have different conceptions of rugging, but at least that is not possible. Like, you can't just, like, walk away with. I think in one case, it was, like, $100 million that were. Was sent to this guy, and then he just, like, baked it. His soul. He's like, oh, my soul now. So, yeah, Pump Fun is, like, a great product. And, yeah, I'm. I'm a fan of Fun Fun. Yeah, same. I don't. I don't. I don't. Like, people are gonna gamble regardless of whatever you think, you know? Like, I'm gonna keep buying Pokemon cards whether you. Whether you make fun of me that it's cardboard with the shiny thing in the front. Like, people are just gonna keep buying it, you know, no matter how dumb it seems. Yeah. So Mountain Dale is really dope. So have you. Because I know, like, obviously, like, when it comes to launch pads, there's a ton of launch pads out there. So I know, like, on the base side of things, Clanker's Been doing really well and they took a different stance from pump on, pumped off on. Guess you could, you know, say pumped up. Fun is also launchpad. So there's a bunch of them out there. Is this going to be permissionless, like, or do they need to reach out to you guys first? Like, if someone wants to create a. Like to use the launchpad, like, on day one. It's not permissionless on day one, but I hope to make it permissionless over time. Yeah, okay. Yeah, No, I was just curious. I had a feeling that it wouldn't be. And is there, like, have you thought about a lot of. Around the. Like, so I know some of it's going into the liquidity pool. What if, like, because the founder is out? Yeah, like, everybody. Everybody can rage, quit then, right? Like, everyone could just be like, I'm out too. You know, like, literally all 100% of people could be just out. Yeah. Damn, that is good. Have you thought about bringing like, text based conversations to Metadow? Like, so it's all in one location, if that makes sense. So like, oh, like taking discord and then integrating. Instead of doing discord, you just have the conversation on metadow? Yeah, kind of like that. Exactly. So like, instead of doing it. Yeah, like discord. Like if someone doesn't want to set up a discord or anything, or like they want to be like really fully, like, transparent. I guess. Yeah, we thought about it. We actually. We had a comment section at one point or now. Now I think we have it again. But yeah, I don't know. Comes Back to the 8020 thing. Like, is it in the 20% of features that provide 80% of value? Unclear. Yeah, that's true. Makes sense. Other than Mountain Dow, is there anything else you want to see from a launch pad scenario? Do you want to see like a nonprofit or any other or. I guess actually, let me take it a step, like higher. Not necessarily tied to Launchpad, but just Futurchi, period. Is there any org out there, like, wish list, that you'd be like, I wish this was like run. Org entity. I don't know anything really, that you're like, I wish this was like on Futar, like the DMV or something. Is there anything. Yeah, like in your brain that's like. I mean, so you're saying outside of crypto. No. Anything even in crypto. Okay. You're like, you could. You could even say like Solana foundation or something like that. Like, it could be for personal gain. Or just like, you're just like, you know, you're like, you think it's inefficient and if they just went into this model, they'd be a bit more efficient. Yeah, I think Jito is one that like, I'm excited about. I mean, I think. Yeah, because I. I think I can pill them once we like, if there's sufficient evidence they will adopt Futurkey. I'm convinced of this with outside. I mean, really. But like everything, like, I really. I honestly believe that most things should be governed by Futurchi. It's not like some niche thing where like a few projects should adopt it. And I'm like excited about those two projects. I'm like more excited about the world adopting future. Yeah, we need more of it. I've been pushing on my side to roll something out to get more Ethereum daos into to it, essentially. So hopefully this episode be will help people, you know, because I feel like with. With the whole optimism thing, Unis Swap, you know, I think hopefully we can get there. I know you got Robin Hansen to join as an advisor, so that's like super dope too. And I know, like, I don't know if you, if you learn. If you listen to the spaces between they. They had Robin Hansen at the optimism when they were talking about like futurarchy as a whole. I was slightly sad to see like that they had him on the Twitter spaces, but he only spoke for like two minutes. Really? Yeah, it just seemed like. That's a shame. Yeah, it seemed like a missed off, man. I was like, man, like, come on, guys. Like, it's rare to have like, you know, the theoretical person that came up with this idea on a Twitter space of all places. You know, like, just let him speak for like 15 minutes at least. Yeah. You know, is there anything like that? How do you plan to use like, Robin Hansen and his capacity now as like an advisor? Yeah, I mean, he came up with the idea and he also. A lot of people don't know this, but he was like instrumental in the development of AMMs. Some would say he invented AMMs, obviously, like Uniswap implemented them, but yeah, some would say he invented them like the mechanism. And yeah, I'd say we're very early days for futurkey and so requires a lot of mechanistic work. One idea is to build what I'm calling a shared liquidity amm, where right now we have an amm, like a market for every proposal. But what if you could instead provide say, cloud USDC to this AMM and then that cloud and USDC Actually gets used in the decision markets and the various proposal thetarchy markets. That would be pretty cool because that would allow people to just LP once and then that can get used to any proposal as opposed to coming to come back and repeatedly lp. And that's like a research problem. I mean, right now it's a research problem. At some point it'll be hopefully an engineering problem. Like we need to design that and yeah, who better than Robin Hinson to work with? Yeah, that's epic, man. Yeah, that's what I, I think that's what I like the, the little bit that he talked the, the thing that I took away from that was he's so like, this is me and my observation. So if he can correct me if I'm wrong also. Hello. But he seems so excited that like this, this thing that was like in his brain is now being used like in the wild, you know, like it's going from the theory to like in real life and it's the shitheads in crypto that are like pushing this, you know, like it. I'm sure he would love to see it like at the government level or some other level, but you know, like, it's totally people on the blockchain that are crazy enough to be like, yeah, let's build this, let's do it. Like you guys. Yeah, I mean, it's a shame for like, if I was him, I mean, it's great that it's happening now, but I have empathy for him and that like, I mean, he came up with this idea 25 years ago. Right. Or at this point, I think 26. It was 1999. Like that's a really long time to have this amazing, amazing idea and then have no one implement it. That kind of sucks. I mean, some of that was just because you can't really do it in a non blockchain context. And so that would be like 1999 to 2015 when Ethereum launched. And then you also can't really do it on Ethereum L1 because it's too slow or like too expensive. And so really I don't think it was like practically possible until all L1s or L2 start taking off, which maybe is like 2018 to like 2021 era. But yeah, it's 2020 is a long time from 2025. And it sucks that like it just took so long. But yeah, but now we're here and now we're building and like, I think at this point there's enough people working on Futurkey. I mean, yeah, there's like three or four forks of Metadao, like, people building, like, inspired by Metadao feedtarky platforms, I think. Yeah. Like, even if, like, I died tomorrow. Even if, like, Metadow died tomorrow, like, the feed trucky train has left the station and. Yeah, it's not turning around. Yeah. No, I fully agree, man. Like, cats out of the bag. Like, I had no idea this even existed until I was kind of doing my research to explore the Solana ecosystem. Like, the builder ecosystem a lot more. Definitely. Really happy that I got to. That I landed on your guys's footsteps. I think it was Mert. Xerox. Mer. I think that's his name. It was like some random post where he was like, these are the companies I'm excited about. Or, like, he shouted you guys out. And I was like, what is this thing? And it was a deep rabbit hole for sure. But, yeah, once you wrap your head around it and you get exposed to it, yeah. I can't stop applying it to a bunch of other use cases, so. Agreed, man. I think. Yeah. Guess a long winded way of saying thank you for doing this, man. I appreciate your time. I know you're super busy. I know you're trying to hire. You're trying to hire essentially an engineer. So. Yeah. Thanks again for doing all this. Yeah, thanks so much for having me on. Yep. So to wrap up, last question, definitely the tough ones. We should have a few. A food turkey decision on this one, too, is the best snack. What's your favorite snack? My favorite snack? Yes. I go through about. So there's this protein bar called Think with an exclamation point, and they have a peanut butter variety. And I go through probably like two to three a day on average. I'm not. Yeah, I. And I just think they taste good and they, like, fill me up. So, yeah, probably that. Although if it's like, what's my favorite snack in terms of taste, it'd probably be ice cream. I really like, like, yeah, all kinds of ice cream, but, like, Magnum bars for one. So. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, ice cream is good. Know I had someone on here tell me hummus and carrots, and I was like, come on, man. Like, yeah, that's gross. Yeah. Yeah, no, not for me. I didn't say if you wanted to live long. I'm just asking you in general if you could eat it at any time with no repercussions. Awesome. All right. If you're hearing this message, you've listened to the entire episode, and for that, I want to thank you. If you're listening to this on another platform other than pods, make sure to go collect this episode link below. If you are on pods, make sure to subscribe from your favorite app so you're notified when I drop an episode. Really hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcast, please share this episode with anyone you think might be interested in this topic. Definitely not for the faint of heart, but a super cool and interesting concept and idea that I think we will see more people exploring. If you have any other ideas or topics you'd like me to cover in the future, get in touch with me via text in the show notes or on social media. Whatever is easier. And as previously mentioned, 25th episodes coming up, I'm going to be doing a giveaway. Couple giveaways, yeah, so I'll have more details on it, but essentially it's going to involve collecting a PO app. I have a really cool PO app for the 25th episode and if you collect that, then you're automatically entered. We're going to do some raffling. Have some fun. All right, see you next episode. Peace. Sa.