Nounspace

This weeks episode features Willie and Jesse, two trailblazers from the Nounspace team. Willie kicks things off by exploring the concept of fidgets—mini embedded frames and websites designed to enhance social media experiences. He highlights the uniqueness of this feature, noting that no other social app currently integrates it. Jesse envisions an AI-driven future where creating sophisticated web pages becomes effortless.

You'll hear about Nounspace's innovative plans, like a platform for AI-generated mini apps and a fidget marketplace to boost user engagement. The conversation dives deep into AI's role in simplifying development tasks and the exciting possibilities of Web3 and decentralization, from customizable themes to token economies.

Our guests also discuss the potential of open-sourcing fidget development and modular systems, enabling even the least tech-savvy users to create engaging digital spaces. Plus, you'll learn about Nounspace's strategic efforts to integrate fragmented tools for Web3 communities, aiming to make sophisticated features accessible without extensive coding skills.

Prop 647-Nouns

00:00 Sold startup, built Bitfract, now at Shapeshift.
08:19 Support RFP process over Prop House for funding.
11:30 Big ideas, small community: customize your world.
20:06 Customize your space with tailored web3 functionalities.
22:21 Leveraging Farcaster for consistent presence and social experiences.
31:39 Building in AI, Web3, and decentralization. Exciting opportunities.
33:02 Creating apps easier; hosting and distribution challenging.
38:27 Underfunded project struggles against well-funded competition.
44:33 Focus on one target user; solve their problems.
50:16 Seeking funding; highlighting solid usage metrics, proposal simplified.
56:54 Exploring diverse communities for Noun Space hub.
01:02:01 Preparing to increase marketing and exposure soon.
01:08:33 Building a community-driven, rewarding, sustainable economy.
01:12:25 Exploring modular boosting features and programmable money.
01:16:19 Web three integration through accessible, user-friendly social networks.
01:21:34 Fortunate to build passionate, exciting, and meaningful projects.
01:31:21 Join nounspace.com: space token launch and community.
01:33:04 Subscribe, review, share, and vote on episodes.

Music & Sounds By: Lakey Inspired
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CastOff/Episode Discussion, here.

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Transcript

0:00

And I'm very curious to see if that's going to be useful for developing fidgets where we might have a fidget creator in the platform where you describe an app that you want and if we have the right data endpoints, it's just coded for you. And then if you select it and use it, then other people will see it pop up in the registry of apps as well. GMGM welcome back to behind the screen with Gramajo, the podcast where we unravel the stories, insights, and secrets of top tier artists, avid collectors and innovative builders shaping the digital frontier, better known as web three. I'm your host, Germaho, a avid crypto enthusiast that's been in the space since 2003, joined the NFT space back in 2021. Yeah. So this week I sat down with the Noun space team. Really fantastic tool that I've been using on my side. It's a fart Caster client. Really great story about how they got started. They've already delivered and now they're going back for some more funding with their v two version, two of their prop via nouns. Building in public, really great marketing. Some awesome lessons in how to build in this kind of space with some really cool people. So I hope you enjoy this episode. Thanks. Yeah. Let's do some quick intros. Jesse, we have not met, but did you want to introduce yourself real quick? Yeah, sure. Hi, I'm Jesse Patterson. I've been in the webs three space since about 2017. I was first introduced through one of the first college blockchain courses through blockchain at Berkeley. And I have really delved into daos during my time in web three. So I helped start Atxdao, which is the Austin City Dao. And I've spent a lot of time building that organization, getting it to the point where it is today, where we run a lot of events and engage in, you know, politics and helping the local community get into web three. And I met Willie through that, and we are now building down space together. Awesome. Yeah. How about you, Willie? And the rest is history, right? So, yeah, I've also been in this space since 2017. Before that, I was doing a legal tech startup. I dropped out of college in 2013 to go head first into the legal tech industry, knowing very little about legal or startups, but learned a lot from that first journey. And beginning of 2017, I had moved to Austin for an accelerator program, sold my house in Colorado, had some money to invest, and I had heard about Ethereum and it sounded so cool. I felt like I had a kind of missed out on bitcoin at that point, and I'm like, oh, here's this cool new thing called Ethereum. And I love the concept of, like, a decentralized global app store. This sounds right up my alley. So I bought some eth, and then it happened to be a great year to buy eth. So by the end of that year, I was obsessed with crypto. Felt like a genius because everything had gone up that year, and sold my legal tech startup in December and started a company with some friends I had met through the same co working space and accelerator program called Bitfract. So all the friends that were there that were really into crypto had this idea to build a tool called Bitfract, which was the first tool where you could trade bitcoin for multiple cryptos. It was built on top of Shapeshift. That was a lot of fun coming from an uphill battle, learning a lot and trying to build a company to disrupt the legal industry to then building something that was much simpler and, like, had pretty instant product market fit was really exciting. And so, like, six months after even having the idea, Shapeshift acquired good fract. I've been working there since then. So as principal product manager at Shapeshift, back when it was a centralized organization, got to lead a lot of the Dow setup and launch, and have been head of decentralization at the Fox foundation since Shapeshift transition to a Dao. So Fox foundation is the foundation that supports Shapeshift DaO and achieving sufficient decentralization. So, big fan of Daos when I moved back to Austin, immediately joined Atxdao, met Jesse, and then, yeah, we did an NFT project earlier this year on base called Trash nfts. Like the week that ERC 404s became standard. So we basically, both Jesse and I had some free time. I had gone to part time at the Fox foundation, and we were kind of figuring out what is the next big thing to build. I joined nouns because I had more free time, and I've been a huge fan of nouns for a long time because I love what they're about. And I again, love Daos. And I feel like nouns is just a blue chip, like, gold standard of daos. So we're excited to get involved there. And we had the idea for noun space. It was actually at an ATX style party in Austin during South by Southwest, right when the request for proposals from nouns for people to build noun as far past their clients was up. So that's kind of where now space idea originated. And, yeah, we haven't looked back since it's been about almost six months since we got the 100k from nouns to start building noun space. And, yeah, Jesse and I and the rest of the team have just been laser focused all summer, working super hard to get noun space to where it is today. Yeah, that's awesome. I actually did have a little bit more of a question on the initial setup because I was going back and looking at the, at the proposal. And. I saw that it was actually just a general call to action. Like, hey, we want to just seed money. And your name wasn't mentioned. Basically no specific team was mentioned. So what was that process of being like, hey, raising your hand? And we have this idea, um, because, like, from what I can see, I mean, you correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm pretty new, too. It's like, that's just kind of what I saw. I was like, hey, we want to put, like, 100k or one hundred fifty k. I forget what the amount was. And it's like, we want to, like, help three teams, and we want to build, like, a noun ish farcaster client or something like that. Something new. Um, so, yeah, can you walk me through that process a little bit of. Like, yeah, there was a huge competition for those top three slots. I think we had 40 competing proposals. Wow. And so, yeah, it was just whoever got the most votes in, like, a big free for all, basically, across all of those proposals. So, yeah, just put our vision out there. I think Willie had already talked with some nouns folks about the idea of, like, a, like, MySpace but far Caster. And the product idea that we pitched in our proposal was maybe, like, a step past that, but definitely still inspired by that initial vision of bringing customizability back to the Internet. Yeah, yeah, I really like the RFP process, too. So now, like you said, they passed two props for 150k each, because actually, the first time they did the 150k prop, they realized that it wasn't really compelling enough to get the quality of builders that they wanted to come try and build managed farcaster clients. So they passed another prop to double down and make total prize pool 300k for three teams. And I really like that approach because when you compare it to the typical nouns governance process where anyone can come make a prop and it can come from anywhere, I think it's a lot better to be able to judge proposals for the same initiative from competing teams because you can judge them relatively and you can see, okay, if we know that nouns wants to fund a nounish far pastor client, and we all agree there. Cool. Let's get some funds together and let's open it up to see who's willing to actually come do this. I think it's actually a really great process to ultimately be able to find the best team, the best idea, the best prop to then fulfill something that the community's already agreed that we want, as opposed to like some prop coming in. And it's like, does the community even actually want this thing? And is this the right team if we do want it? Is this the best team to fund it? So, big fan of the RFP process. And rip to prop house because prop House was a tool built by nouns that was built for these rfps and has since been sunset because the team that was building it is focused on rounds, which is understandable. But, yeah, I really liked prophass. I will say there are other tools out there, like joke race, basically, that can kind of be used to do the same thing. So I think that might have been also part of the calculus for pivoting. Was that, okay, let's go focus on something that no one else is doing and do that really well. Yeah, yeah. That's what it kind of looked like to me as well, coming from the web two space. Usually I'm in charge of as, you know, like with the legal tech, where we're always, like, really connected with procurement and strategic procurement or just sourcing as a whole. And so I'm used to kind of like the whole RFP process, RFI process, especially for my own software that we buy. So it really got vibes like that very quickly, which is, like, not typical, I guess, or different from some of the other props I've seen from at least in the noun space. So, yeah, I know what you mean. Nouns has such a great strength there that it can really leverage because, like, if some law firm were to go out and say, hey, we need this tech, like, who's going to apply to come build it? It might get some applications, but they're not going to get, like, the quality of builders that nouns saw for this nounish forecaster opportunity. Nouns has that reach, especially with the builder community. So it was impressive. Like Jesse said, there were some really, really strong teams and strong props, some props for products that have already been built, and they're like, hey, we'll pivot to make it nouns focused. I think one thing that noun space did quite differently than a lot of the other applicants was that we focused on building something that was not only useful for nouns, but useful for all web three communities, potentially even users. Outside of web three. And that was a big differentiator. Like you said, the initial prop, it was very open ended. It was just building out as far caster client. Well, what does that mean? And something that we made clear was that we don't want to just build something that requires ongoing funding from nouns, where the team just has to keep coming back to ask nouns for funding. And we think it's much better if we build something that's sustainable. And in order to be sustainable, it needs to appeal to users outside of the nouns community. And again, like, what is the nouns community? It's already so big and so diverse. There's already all these different nounish subdows and forks that are all unique. How do we build one social app that satisfies all of them? Okay, well, let's make it customizable, fully customizable. And let's bring in mini apps that bring in all this other content from outside. And if we do that, not only is that going to appeal to the nounish communities, but it could appeal to everybody. And that was a big differentiator. I think a lot of the other props were just very focused on building something for nouns. We realized very early on that just was not a compelling path either for the team or for nouns to pursue. Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that. Like, one thing I'm noticing in my short time of joining is, like, big ideas or not just like, hey, only our community or our small little corner of the world. And I'm not saying small, like, in the sense of, like, downs is small, or the whole ecosystem of all the forks is small, but it's, like, small in the sense of, like, when you look at the grand scheme of the whole Internet, like, it is small. And that's kind of what I liked about it, too, when I saw noun space early on was like, hey, this feels like MySpace. And, like, it's like building legos all over again for to make, like, the cozy corners. And it kind of falls in line, too, with, like, what Dan and the farcaster community also want to, which is, like, you know, you want to be able to customize, like, your own little world, you know? And it doesn't have to be like, you know, like, you're gonna be editing, like, the HTML or the CSS or, like, putting annoying music, like, at the beginning, like, back in the MySpace days. Like, I'm old enough to remember all that. Like, we can put limits to it, obviously, but it is really. It's a cool concept, and I agree with you. Like, it's it's nounish to me in the sense that, like, even if you don't, like, don't use any of the noun stuff or any of the nouns, like, let's say, template. From a visual perspective, it's still a very useful client, and it's becoming more useful, too. Have you guys seen llama feed by any chance? Oh, yeah, actually, we've seen a lot of stuff coming out really recently that's very similar to noun space visually. Like, oh, these are blocks that you can put together for a custom interface. Some, like, MySpace inspired stuff starting to come out, and definitely a lot of fervor around miniapps. We kind of saw that logical progression from, like, okay, frames. Frames are, frames are neat, but they're limited very clearly. So, like, how do you take frames and put them on crack? Yeah, and, yeah. So fidgets was our answer to that. And of course, like, mini apps basically are our fidgets. They fit kind of the same niche, but, yeah, llama feed. Yeah, same concept. Exactly. I don't know if you saw Willie, I put it in the internal chat. I can send it to you via warpcast, too, but it's super funny. I saw this instantly, and I was. Gonna send it to you guys and. Be like, hey, just whatever the Delta is. Those are some more fidgets you guys can build. I love that. And to your point, like, we see a lot of stuff that is being built as a new product, and we're like, this would actually just be great as a fidget, right? Like, it doesn't need its own product, it doesn't need its own brand and company and, like, domain and website that people have to go visit. Like, let's just make it, let's just put this in a fidget and it's great. Like, if we don't have to build all these fidgets ourselves, that's the dream. Like, we think if we try to build them all, that's too much of a task. But we can instead build tools in the framework where people can build their own fidgets. Take this other really, these cool ideas. They have, these cool protocols and apps that they've already built and make that accessible to users in social. That's the winning strategy. That's what we're focused on, is building the engine, the framework, the tools that can connect these developers that can build cool stuff with users and lower the barrier of launching something cool so that it's just a mini app instead of trying to build a whole company and product around it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And sometimes, like, you know, like, one of the things I feel like with frames, and obviously, this might change now with the, with the miniat meta, but, like, you know, like, a frame would go viral unless you bookmarked it or you, it was like, one of those frames you, you would use daily. I would say within a month, people were, it was out of mind, you know, like, people weren't using it or anything like that. And I would say that what I like about nailspace, at least, is that you could put that frame and it's there, and especially if you use it daily or, I don't know, it makes it so it stays there and you kind of remember it. And so I feel like it kind of makes it stickier in that sense, too. And it might change with mini apps. People might be, like, their frames will be less forgotten, I guess. I don't know, maybe because, like, you can, like, the experience is a little bit better instead of, like, clicking right and it moving along, like, to the right, like, changing the image or whatever. So, I don't know. We'll see. But that's what I like about kind of your guys's things is that, like, it, it's like your mind could, whatever you want. Like, you could almost make it happen, essentially, like you said, fill in the framework, and then people will go wild. I mean, the next big evolution for sure is open sourcing the fidget development. So providing people with an SDK to be able to submit their own applications for it. And then basically the way that downspace works is we kind of take care of the backend for these fidgets. So we provide them with. Each fidget gets its own auth as an app. It can put data into our system that only it can access and decrypt that they could have their own set of users that they're keeping track of and data. For each of those users, then all you have to build is the front end, which really lowers the barrier to entry for building these applications and getting something quick out the door. And we've thought a lot about how to make all of the pieces of that system much more modular. So even down to the theming, right now, we have a grid system, but we have systems in place that will basically let you swap out how things are laid out and arranged and all of that to really let folks, you know, build whatever their heart desires, like you said. Yeah, yeah. Even the tabs, too. You know, like, I think me and Willie were talking about this, where it's like a common theme, you know, like in web three, there's like there's like, I mean, people have multiple identities as a whole, but like it's interesting, like, you know, like in web three, like, you know, I collect nfts and having an artist tab and I know that's what you guys were talking about, tabs, but having an artist tab and then whether you like it or not, people are doing dGen, like today was dj and claim day or other tokens. So you could have like your dgen tab, it's just like your centralized hub for your llama feed essentially. And then you could have like your regular, you know, regular feed where you're just scrolling through things. But I feel like, yeah, like the tabs, like you can just go through them essentially. Yeah. The tabs are a huge evolution, I guess of noun space. The way what we focused on with our initial version was kind of three big core features. So themes I the ability to customize the look, feel and sound of your space fidgets, the ability to add, arrange, embed and even configure these little miniature apps on your space and then tabs, which basically just lets you multiply the power of themes and fidgets by adding new tabs and you can add them to either your home base or your space. So I don't know if we mentioned this yet, but your space is like your public profile that people will see when they come to check you out on noun space. So you got your forecaster feed and whatever other content and functionality that you want to share. Here we are in the final stages of adding tabs to profiles. We were working on that late last night and I think we're going to go right back to working on that after this podcast. But that would be the final core feature that we initially set out with. We've also added other functionality on top of that, notifications and search. We need to add channels. That's one of the core pieces of functionality that's still missing from noun space. And by the way, I'm sharing my screen. Are you seeing. Yeah, we can see it. Yeah, and people will be able to see it too. So I figured it would help just to show the difference between the homebase and the space because to your point, a lot of web three users have different communities, different content, different functionality that's important to them. And so right now in a warpcast or another social client, you just have your feed or you can go visit other user spaces. We realize that these themes and fidgets and tabs are just as useful on your space that you're sharing publicly as they are on your home base. So you can add the communities, the content and the functionality that matters to you to your own home base. And for example, if you're part of multiple different daos and you want to track their governance really easily, you can add multiple snapshots, fidgets basically to track the different daos that you want to keep track of and not have to just like, and then just very quickly every day, just see, are there new proposals that I want to participate in and vote on them all from one place. And you can do that not just with snapshot proposals, but you can also do it with nounish governance proposals. And again, this is also just a great way to see the beauty of composability at work. All these smart contracts that get replicated time and time again, we can create one UI, one miniat that can display, lets you read and write to these contracts, and then we can use that same UI, that same mini app to just let people plug in any other fork of that contract. This hopefully gives an example of whether you're a user that cares a lot about Daos and you need multiple Daos, or you're part of multiple different communities. You could have a tab for every community that you're a part of. And then, yeah, or if you are a heavy defi user or you're super into nfts, like whatever it is, you can customize your own experience and track all of that in one place right next to social, instead of having to leave social every time you want to go use one of these other features. Yeah. I even see you have the New York Times on there, which is great. Yeah, it's fantastic. Customize my homebase to have the Daos that I follow now and the feed as well. So it's really great. I love it. And these fidgets also kind of like, since they're leveraging farcaster, like a single, basically like set of users, you can have kind of a consistent presence across all of them. And with that one way to link someone's activity across all of these different fidgets, you can create social experiences within those mini apps that you would otherwise have a hard time doing. So maybe if you're trading, you can be competitive with folks that, uh, you interact with the most on Farcaster. Um, and literally just like have some kind of public, like, social feed of, of trading. Uh, there's, there's a, I think a lot of ways that folks can leverage the existing social graph and definitely like the Internet in general has, uh, like shifted towards having more content within social media. Um, and like we've seen like right now, you know, Gen Z is kind of shifting towards using like TikTok or Instagram to search for like, information that's relevant or useful to them. Like, the quality of Google search results has gone down. And part of that I think is gonna like that that trend is gonna continue to increase because of the sheer amount of like, AI output that's gonna be on the Internet. You know, like most companies at this point that are like paying attention to AI have started to put out like AI generated articles about their brand. The sheer amount of information out there that's just going to be more low quality or lower signal to noise ratio is going to go through the roof. And so having a social graph that you can vet to a certain degree and do degrees of Kevin Bacon, how close is this person to someone else I know, or what activity have they done on chain or within fidgets to give them a score of how real they are will help with basically curation of the content that's out there, which is going to be this massive challenge as we move into content becoming just incredibly easy to produce. Yeah, yeah, no, I could see that. Let's see. I'll stop sharing too. The one thing I wanted to add too. I know we're talking about these different fidgets that the frames and how we want to build the fidget SDK. We think that's going to be a huge unlock, but it is pretty cool how already, to your point around these frames that get lost in bookmarks, just the ability to add any frame or any iframe, any website that supports iframes, just embed that next to your social feed. That alone is a huge unlock that I don't know any other social app that makes that possible. But just that alone enables us to bring all these frames that are getting built, all these different websites, and bring them into your social space. And that alone is already just, I like to think of these as these infinite fidgets, basically where we build one fidget and then it just gives our users access to a growing library of different applications. Yeah, I mean, I could tell you even like, as a user, so, and this might seem like trivial or not, not revolutionary to you guys because you guys are developers, but like, I'll give you an example. So, like, I know just enough, like, coding to, to be slightly dangerous, essentially, like in a business setting or at least in the legal department for sure. But one thing that I was running into recently was I wanted to build a website for a portfolio for myself, but also my web three portfolio with all my content and stuff. For my personal one, I think I was using some static website generator. I forget which one. Webflow? No, I think I went with like Jelco or UGo or something. Like a really cheap one. Yeah, it's a really cheap easy one and it was great. But the only issue was like the content, like, like updating that website was essentially I had to open up like versus code and like make the edits there. And I was like, that's kind of annoying, like, you know, like, because for me specifically, like, you know, all I'm updating is really like I want to, like, you want to reach me, like, here it is. And if you want a copy of my cv, here it is. You know, like very simple stuff. Like not, it's not, nothing's really changing. But for my content, one, you know, I'm cranking out content once a week for the newsletter, like written content for the podcast, like every two weeks and then just doing a bunch of other stuff. And I was like, am I supposed to open like an editor every single time? I want to like link out to a different thing? Like for this content? Like web three identity. I was like, this sounds insane. Like, I don't want to be doing this all the time. So I was looking at these like low code, no code, kind of like website builders. And there was one built on notion and I do a lot of my stuff for my content on notion. And literally it's the exact same thing you're saying. It's like you could just, it's like building blocks. Like you can say like, here's my podcast, and in the podcast page I, you just dump like a I widget of your podcast RSS feed and it just makes it look pretty for you. And I mean, obviously, like if you had a bunch of time and you know what you're doing and you know, yes, you're going to make a way better looking website than what I have. But in my case I was like, well, this is pretty straightforward. And essentially I just put in the URL or the RSS feed and it kind of auto updates itself. I don't need to do anything specifically. So it's been nice from that. And those tools have gone really popular now. Notions even released their own way to publish your own website and stuff like that. So they clearly see a market there, essentially. So, yeah, I like what you're saying about the widgets and all that. I think it's. Can some. Yeah, can someone create something like way cooler for themselves? Like if they're already a developer. Yeah, 100%. Like, they can make it look really pretty and go out, but like, for some other people, like myself, I'm like, dude, like, now space is actually pretty cool. Like, people could see, like, it took me less than 30 minutes, you know, and especially since you guys created kind of some visual templates as well, like, it makes it really easy at that point for someone to be like, here's like my little cozy corner of things, that of me and web three, essentially. You know, like, yeah, we're a little more like the canva of website builders. Yeah, it's great, man. I'm not a developer actually, so it sounds like you and I are about like the same skill level grandma has. So I love no code stuff and being able to feel like a hacker and create and build stuff without having to write code, so. And props to Jesse and the engineers for, for building everything you've seen. We want to take it a step further. And one thing that's on our roadmap is leveraging AI to generate websites for you. So to take some of the fancier stuff that you could be doing and make it possible, but still keep your hands completely out of the code if you don't want to be, you know, playing around in it. I think we're going to see a lot of that, and I'm very curious to see if that's going to be useful for developing fidgets where we might have a fidget creator in the platform where you describe an app that you want, and if we have the right data endpoints, it's just coded for you. And then if you select it and use it, then other people will see it pop up in the registry of apps as well. Yeah, that'd be sick. A little mini marketplace of this is how many it's been used throughout this many workspaces. Yeah, I mean, now space is just going to start collecting basically data streams for information that's out there, and then that'll be accessible to the AI, to code connections to. So that'll take care of a decent amount of the complications that AI right now can't really handle. It doesn't handle going and grabbing keys from a particular data provider and then getting your environment variable set up and all of that. But in this case, we would have that all done already. So really all the AI is doing is taking that data and then putting it into a front end, which AI has proven to be actually pretty good at creating visual results, um, in code. Yeah, I've been messing around with like, cursor too, where like I saw someone's like blog and I was like, just copy all this. It's really good at that kind of. Stuff and getting better too. So yeah, it's cool that that's clearly the direction that things are going in. And it's pretty exciting to be building in a place where, you know, not only are we at the intersection of like web three and crypto and decentralization, but also AI, it's, it feels like there's a big opportunity for us to help take all this cool AI stuff that's getting built into your point. Gramaha? We're familiar with it. We know how to go in there and get into cursor, but the average user doesn't necessarily know how to go actually use AI, let alone to use AI to build an application. Very excited to let people customize their theme, their background. That's one thing that we're already doing. We're already going to AI asking it to generate the HTML CSS background and then copying it and pasting that into the, the code tab with the theme editor. Very excited to let people just say what they want their space to look like, oh, I want sparkly rainbow unicorns on my background. And then you have a bespoke background. Like, that seems definitely like, yeah, we're very excited about that. That could be, I think, a killer feature that really gets people excited and gives you that same ability of customizing your old MySpace page, but without having to write the code or know any of that yourself and then to bring that to mini apps. I just think, yeah, it's clearly the future. And so letting AI create whatever fidget you want, very exciting that even though we're focused on this web three social thing, it feels like there's a big opportunity for us to still leverage these huge changes that AI is going to have over the coming years. Yeah, the barrier to creating these apps is going down a lot, but hosting and distributing it is still challenging. Like going from, oh, it shows on my desktop to, oh, I can get users in here, I can like have people actually be able to access it online and people can find it. Those are, those are hurdles that even if you're able to generate an app locally, you're going to run into, and those are going to slow you down a lot. And so having something that's just automatically hosted on downspace really starts to lower the barrier of entry, to not only creating something that's useful for yourself, but something that might be useful for other people and them actually being able to play around with it and start using it as a building block in their own ecosystem for using the Internet. Yeah, 100%. It's a great point. It reminds me of a really funny screenshot of a conversation I saw the other day. You guys might have seen it too, but a friend was talking to his friend. He's like, bro, you should see this app I just created with cursor. You're a developer. Like, your job is done, bro. And the developer friend goes, oh, really? Send me the link. And the friend sends localhost 3000. You're absolutely right. Yeah. Funny. Okay, so I want to dive in a little bit about your guys prop, the one from September, and then also your most recent update to it. Um, but kind of before I dive into that one, um, you guys have been live, um, for a little over three months, I believe. Um, what are kind of the lessons you guys have learned? Um, I guess either on the lead up to going live since you've gone live. Um, yeah, that could help other people as well, you know, that are in this world. I mean, I think a big one is, um, it's good to set goals for yourself, like set timelines, deadlines. But if you're going into a problem where there are unknown unknowns, announcing your deadlines publicly will require you to make sacrifices along the way that you might not have made if you didn't have this external pressure. Well said. We tried to hit our three month deadline for the nouns prop, which was like, okay, from when we get this 100k, we wanted to have our app out the door within three months. And we were the only team that actually hit that. But we definitely had to go back and rebuild some of that stuff in the previous three months to get it to accommodate all of the features we really wanted. Yes. As you bring it up, have the other two apps launched or like that. I missed that, or it's only been you guys so far. I mean, I think one of them is that there is a website, I don't know if you could call it a client. It's a website that pulls together nounish content, an aggregate of a bunch of nounish farcaster content. But it's not a place where you can go and post or follow or actively engage with Farcaster. And that's the only other one that's launched so far. So I would say that our, I mean, I would love to see those continue to develop and the one that hasn't been launched, to be launched. But noun space is definitely the most successful in terms of, like, delivering a client for forecast. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Because I was like trying to look for it. I was like, where are the other two? That's something that I'm noticing too. Even just in general with, like, nouns is like when something passes. Like, especially as a new person, I was like, oh, this is cool. And I see, like, when the prop was submitted and all that. Um, but like, the follow through on it is like the, and I know people are like, oh, there's prop dates and a couple other places, um, where you could check out. And I've been checking it out and stuff. But, um, yeah, I feel like the, at least from like a new person, like that experience of like seeing it, you know, like showing up to the prop getting approved, but then after that, like, it, it's hard on the follow through. Yeah. One of the challenges with funding projects as a chain organization with no legal entity and. No really. So, no, I feel like there's like. A prime opportunity and someone might say, this is repetitive, but if there's one thing I've learned from, like, change management is, like, people need to hear things like seven times where it's a stick. And I would say, like, I'm surprised we haven't seen a bot that like, looks at your voting history and if you voted on a prop and then there's some kind of update somewhere out there that it just like tells you, like, sends you a direct cast saying, hey, there's an update. Yeah, you should build it with, with cursor. Yeah, I had that thought last night. I was like, this needs to be a thing. I will say, yeah, I agree with Jesse. I hope to see the other project ship as well. I do think they're still working on it, but I also think it just, it just shows, like, that 100k in three months is not allowed to build, like, competitive farcaster client. It's a big undertaking. We're competing with like, warpcast, basically, who has $150 million and a big head start. So it's a big undertaking for sure. And I think that has to do, that probably has something to do with why we haven't seen these things ship yet. And also, this is just a personal assumption, but it goes back to that belief that the incentive isn't necessarily there for a team of quality builders to build a nounish forecaster client that's just focused on nouns. And that basically relies on nouns primarily for funding or nounish community members for funding. It's just the economics, I think, just don't add up. And these are talented builders that have great opportunities to go build cool stuff and change the world. Yeah, I think that might have had something to do with it. It makes sense to me. But again, that's just me hypothesizing. No worries. Yeah, I mean, go ahead. One of the proposals, one of the proposals, the guy that proposed it is now working on the warpcast team. So he definitely found something which worked out in that regard. But, yeah, that's hilarious. Decided that might be more productive than trying to, you know, battle the beast. Poke the bear. Yeah. I give props to the people that are doing it, though. Like, it's tough. You know, I think everyone always points to super cast as like a success or, you know, every, obviously there's many, there's many definitions of success, especially in this kind of game right now that we're in and in the market that we're in as well. So I don't know, I feel like the clients that are trying. So like, recaster is another one. That's pretty cool, you guys. And supercast, it's a tough game. Like you said, they have 150 million. They have multiple engineers. They got a head start. Yeah. I feel like you guys are doing cool and you're trying something very different from all of them. You know, like, I think that's the big thing. It's like, if you're gonna make a client, you gotta differentiate. Like, that's exactly it. You're probably not gonna beat warpcast and building a better Twitter clone. And so, like, we saw that, like, frames on warpcast, like, really popped off. And, like, what was popping off about them was like the, the composability. Right. And so, like, what if we just take that to a logical extreme? We create a client that is like, completely composable. So, like, in noun space, even the feed is a fidget. I noticed. So you could, you could, in theory, create just a completely different feed. And I've seen people post about how they, they're like, oh, I wish I could make a client that, like, had these characteristics. And there's a ton of work that goes into a client beyond just the feed, like notifications, authentication, the connection to Warpcast, and then connected apps. So having a platform where you could just maybe just make your own customized client without having to deal with all of the other work that comes with it provides an avenue for those folks that want to really dig into customization. I like that narrative, Jesse. I think once we have this fidget SDK, it's like, oh, don't build your whole, don't build your own client. Just build a fidget with the unique feature that's missing and then use noun space for all the other core functionality. I like. Yeah, just build a noun space feed. Yeah, no, it'd be awesome. I mean, personally, there's a couple of people that I don't know if you guys, I'm sure you have seen him nt. He's like a dev out in on Farcaster, but he, he's been building a lot of, like, using AI LLMs to, like, summarize what's happening in, in Farcaster. I think, like, Balaji's had, like, a hundred k bounty of, like, create, like, a yemenite, a summarizer of what's going on in the last 24 hours in Farcaster. And I'm pretty, I don't know if he won it, but, like, he got pretty damn close. Like, he has, like, a really good tool. And the reason why I bring it up is in llama feed, there's, like, ask llama. Like, literally, it's like search. And, you know, it's like a perplexity search, essentially. So he built, like, a perplexity search equivalent. But for Farcaster, and I think he did, like, a specific one that was for Dan and all the AmA's he's done. So, like, essentially, if you wanted, like, a Dan, like response to one of your questions, you could get one. But, like, yeah, like, that could easily be like, you know, put it in there and be like, this is what's trending in the last, yeah, that could be a widget. Like, what's trending in the last 24 hours. If you could choose, like, for the feed, what algo, you want to apply, like, airstack versus versus, I don't know what the other algos are out there. The warpcast one, the priority one. I don't know, like, there could be. People choose which algos, and spam is becoming a big issue. So getting people the ability to filter channel feeds by different rules, like, oh, do you have x token? Or have you interacted with y protocol? Or has your wallet spent at least dollar ten of gas fees? Things like that could go a long way in combating the spam. Yeah, exactly. All right, let's get it. Thanks for that. By the way, I was curious on, since you guys are doing this, um, and how many people are building clients. I was like, hey, like, what's some learning opportunities you guys have here, uh, to share. To share with folks. So we got one more quick learning opportunity. And this goes hand in hand with the, the nouns prop, basically. So our v two of the prop. Uh, the goal is really focused on finding ten communities, which is what a target user is, web three communities, and getting them to use noun space as their primary hub. So the learning there, which I think is applicable to everyone, building something big is before you try to build something that solves everyone's problems, all of everyone's problems, just like, focus on one target user that strategically makes sense and like, solve their problems, get them really happy, get some power users before you then expand and go on to other use cases. So for us, that's web three communities. And again, we think there's a big opportunity to focus on these communities who have stuff fragmented across multiple different websites and applications and help them bring it all together, while also, like, listening to their feedback of like, what are you missing from other social apps? What does Warpcast not have for your community? What does Twitter not have? Cool. Okay, let's build that for you so that we can not only help you bring everything together, but be the best social app that really focuses on solving communities needs. And if we can get the communities on board, get them to bring their community members on board, hopefully that will give us enough of like a compelling user base that we can then get these developers to want to come build fidgets. So that's just one big learning, is make one target user really happy before trying to make everyone happy. Yeah, that's a good one. I would agree with that. Let's dive into this prop. Let's take a quick break. I hope you're enjoying this episode. This episode was made possible with the support of my premium subscribers, Seattle Dog, McMills, OG Lucres, Johan Nonlinear, Brennan, Peachy, inceptionally, Topo, Tani, Tree Girl, Anne Branson, and disco. Thanks again for your guys support. Really appreciate it. If you'd like to receive exclusive drops access to token gated content, make sure to subscribe to my hypersub link will be down below. Also, if you collect this episode on pods for the time being, right now, you can actually vote on the next host as well as receive some money as well for your suggestions and voting. Thanks. I don't know if it makes sense for like, you guys, let me know how you feel, but does it make sense to cover a little bit v one or do you guys just want to go into. I like the way that you wrote v two, by the way. It's just like, this is what's changed at the very top. Like, it's very, it's good. What do you guys think? Should we cover v one a little bit or go straight to v two. I feel like we've kind of covered, like, the essence of v one, where, like, what we wanted to build. Right. Whereas v two is more of a. Here's where we're at, and, like, here's the next step, so maybe. Maybe we jump into that. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah, I agree. Cause I think you guys covered v one pretty well. I would say, like, we didn't talk about it specifically, like, in the details, but we're at b two anyway, so. Yeah, let's talk about v two. Do you guys want to kick us off on, should we just cover high level? What are the differences between the original one and this one? Sure. Maybe. Yeah, maybe we can share the screen again, too, because it'll be cool for people to see this, too, especially if you've never seen, like, a governance proposal or announced governance proposal. Nouns is definitely, like, again, the gold standard of Daos, and I think it's the most rigorous. It's like governance major leagues, basically, because you get so much feedback from so many different people who really will take the time to review it. So we really focused on making sure that we had all the information that we felt was necessary to communicate, but also tried to make it concise because people only have so much time. So, like you said, we started with the key changes from our first prop, which put up a couple weeks ago. It had majority yes votes, but it didn't have enough yes votes to reach for him. And so it didn't pass. We're back for round two. We're thanking everybody for their feedback, of course, and we're letting them know we're still committed. And here are the main changes we made. So the funding request is now two hundred k. Four was 250 as part of that. The full time headcount is four. So myself as a product manager, and then three engineers, we all wear a lot of hats, of course, as such a small team, but, yeah, a really, really lean, mean team, especially for this current stage that we're in. And our goal before the goal was to reach sustainability with the 250k. Now we're just focused on specifically getting ten communities, at least using nonspace as their primary hub to share the content and the functionality they wish with their audience. We think that's solid for showing some early validation of product market fit and something that we can achieve in this next phase with 200k. If we crush that goal, then the plan is to basically figure out what is the next goal and use all the learnings that we've gained since achieving that goal to inform where we should go next. We added some information around the vision, the mission, the target user and the go to market. There were some people who gave feedback on the first prop that this was not clear. And for us I think it was pretty clear. We definitely put a lot of thought into it and I don't necessarily think that much of this has changed since the first prop. I guess there's more clarity, we really focused on it, but it's definitely communicated, whereas before, it's a great example of how if you don't put something in the prop, then people might have assume the worst or that you haven't thought about it. So made that clear. We added usage metrics which have continued to grow. So it's a good time for us to be questing funding because we have some solid metrics. And then we added more information on the space token and the noun space Dao, which launched September 12, right after that last prop. And then overall we tried to shorten the prop and just focus this part on the road ahead. And then we took a lot of the information on what we've already accomplished and we put that into the appendix because we have done quite a bit and we wanted to make sure that people saw everything that we had done but kept that in a separate space. Because really the main thing is this proposal wanted to keep that focused on top so we won't dive into all of it because it's really, really long. But basically we go through, we give a TLDR, talk about our vision, our mission problem, we're solving non spaces solution. What our goal is for this next five month phase, which is what we're committing to at a minimum with 200k. Who our target user is and why that they're our target user. Our strategy, it's all about the strategy. And I really think this is a killer strategy that really plays into like the opportunity, our team's strengths and makes sense. It's a thoughtful strategy that we're excited about and the momentum, some great growth, 500% growth over the past six weeks. This was last week, so I think we had a little bit of a dip, but still the trend is just going up and I think we're on track to beat last week. This week. So yeah, great to see some pretty compelling growth for a project this early. Obviously we need a lot more users. We need to find product market fit and we don't think we're there yet. Like we just built this MLP. It's very much a proof of concept and a solid foundation to build upon. But we are confident that in the next five months, with 200k, we'll be able to either validate or invalidate this hypothesis. Hopefully validate it, and we have some very encouraging momentum that makes it. Yeah, it's not unrealistic to think that we are on the right track already. Very important. Maybe this should have been higher up, but we talked about benefits to nouns. If you're asking nouns for 200k, you gotta make it clear how this is going to benefit nouns. We talk about how we're going to use these funds and then talk about a path to sustainability, or at the very least, subsidized costs. So even if we're not able to get to sustainability in this next phase, at least generating revenues and using those revenues to reinvest in growth and development so that we're not 100% dependent on nouns. And, yeah, we just end it with some cool spaces that have already been customized. If I had seen your space. Oh, yeah, there it is right here. Here's the Germaho space. You're featured. Oh, nice. I love it. And then a recap. And just a thank you to everybody that's helped us before we go into the appendix, which I'll let you guys read yourself. I won't dive in there, but I will say there are some really great videos. We've made some awesome video content. There's a ton of testimonials in here, too. But if you haven't seen the non space videos, I definitely recommend checking these out. Yeah, this is. It's super comprehensive, I would say. You know, I saw a funny, just as a side, like, I saw a funny comment about, like, grant writing. So I used to work for nonprofit and be on their board, and it's like its own job, you know, like, navigating writing grants. Like, it's like a skill, and making sure you get the votes and all that. And I feel like, at least with nouns, like you said, it's like the big leagues. Yeah, I feel like we might reach a stage at one point where dows like you, that's going to become a role, because it's a skill in art in itself. Like, I would say what you wrote, like, it's really good. Mandev. Like, I read a lot of proposals from a lot of vendors, and you'd be surprised. Uh, yours is probably better than a lot, like, half of them, for sure. Thanks, maho. I really appreciate hearing that because we put a lot of work not just into the prop, but into building it, and that it's so interesting when you put this prop up, it's like, okay. All the effort that the team has put in, we now need to like communicate that to this big, diverse group of people, many of which we've never met before, and try and get them on board. And it's really freaking hard. And then it can hurt when then people just vote no and don't say why. It's like, what? Oh, I know. It has their own perspective, you know, like down stao isn't really like a monolith. So like you're trying to find the like currents of like desire within the DAO for like what people care about. And so like a lot of the reason why the this v two proposal is so good is because we got such great feedback from people on what was important to them and a lot of it was really constructive. Not all of its constructive. Sometimes people are like, nah, screw you. Yeah, but like eating things. But yeah, go ahead. Tons of people were willing to take the time to talk with us and we really tried to rework this so that, so that it takes into that feedback. And I think a lot of that feedback was also not just geared towards what people want, but geared towards helping this project actually succeed. Yeah, well said. Yeah, yeah, and you guys are putting in the work too. You know, like I think part of one thing that's become very clear to me is Willie's out there, man. I'm not saying you're not Jesse, but. Like I'm much quieter than Willie. Yeah, Willie's out there, Mandy, non stop. I'm pushing on, on the side. You can't see. You could go GitHub, you know, commits, all 700 of them. There you go. You gotta make that. Gotta put it in a Zora, like just a GitHub heat map of it and just feel like fund me, guys, may motivate me this way. Oh, yeah, it's really cool. Honestly. Like it takes a team for sure. But yeah, Willie sent me a video about like him speaking for Dallas or whatever and I was like, this is cool. Like the team that's coming here to you guys are living and breathing. It is kind of like an easy way to say that. So it's fantastic to see. Have you identified those ten communities by any chance? I don't know if we can or have ideas. You don't have to say, but I'm assuming it's very critical to choose the right ten for sure. Yeah, we want to be thoughtful about it. Definitely. We want some nonish communities as well as some non communities we've already got like, a handful of communities that are using noun space, and communities that want to use noun space as their primary hub. And these aren't just nonish communities, but also like, we've got keep key hardware wallet. We've got shapeshift, which is a defi app. We have give it a donation app. We have skate Hive, which is like a skateboard social thing. So already some awesome initial communities, but I don't think anyone that's using noun space daily yet, or as their primary hub, but already we've gotten some really good feedback from these communities. Like base noun, for example, wants to use noun space as their primary hub, but they need mobile support. Right. They can't just point everyone to a website that only works on desktop. Yeah, makes sense. So that's great feedback. We want to build that. We know it's not just going to be useful for base noun, but other communities as well. And then other feedback that we've heard from a lot of the, uh, communities that we have been talking to that want to use noun space is that we need channels. And so that was one of the, like, kind of. That's one of the final missing core pieces of functionality from morpcast that we haven't built yet. But we're very excited to bring channels to noun space, do it differently. Hopefully better bring the power of themes and fidgets to these channels. And, uh, yeah, that will hopefully. We have been talking to a lot of really awesome, some of the top channels on farcaster that are very interested in this, but until we have channels, we can't get them on. So. Yeah. Good. Gramaho. If you're looking for specifics on the channel front, I can say that I've spoken with. I speak nerd a bunch. Who runs the tabletop channel. And the tabletop channel has been a very actively formed community, and they have a lot of needs to have a way to coordinate and organize themselves beyond what's available right now in the workcast channel. So that's one of the communities that we're very specifically targeting. Oh, that's perfect. Yeah. I speak nerd. I think his name's Dan, if I remember correctly. Could be wrong, but. We'Re all pseudo a. Not on here, right? Yeah. Yeah. This is my last name, in case it wasn't clear. Yeah, I feel like that's a good community. Yeah, you guys are in good hands. I'm sure they're a little bit nounish too, which is cool. I speak nerds. Down with the nouns. And then parenting just a couple days ago, Mick Bane from parenting cast it out, and he said, hey, I want to build, like, a landing page for the parenting channel. Does any tool like this exist? And everyone's like, no. No tool exists. Shout out to Darikon for tagging nounspace Tom and saying, oh, what about now? Space? So we'd love to get them on board because, yeah, it's like, oh, we don't have channels yet. We know you guys need channels, but we can show you what's possible. And before you go, try to build some other website or landing page, basically. Like, let's do it. Let's just make your channel the landing page and bring the functionality right there. So I feel like that's what it is. And you've done a really great job at, like, marketing, in my opinion, or getting your name out there in unique ways with your alt account just in general, you know? And so it always trips me out. Like, it's literally people. Yeah, with Tom. With Tom. I thought Tom was real. Just so, you know, for, like, for, like, a month. I mean, you wouldn't be the only one. But if you poke. You poke through the pictures, you'll be like, huh. Tom looks pretty. Pretty, pretty square. Yeah, he does. He does all the time. But I feel like, yeah, it's like, Rios Elle. Like, I just tagged her, and I was like, hey, like, this. This seems right up your alley. Like, she's making, like, the craziest. I believe it's a she. I could be wrong, but they are building, like, the craziest homepage on the Internet that I've ever seen. Like, sprites and game Boy, like, music and everything and someone like that, I was like, okay, clearly that's gonna be better for you. But I was like, I still would love to see a. Yeah, she has announced phase. Yeah, exactly. So this is great. Like, it was cool that she was. Able to take some of this stuff that she was already building and, like, pop it into iframes right next to her feet. So, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, she. She's a great person, but, yeah, like, that's. That's a lot of the time. I keep telling people, like, you know, do you want to build a whole website? No, like, for me, like, you know, like, I have to figure out, like, what I'm going to do for a website for my content. And I was like, honestly, this. This works for me. Like, for on chain communities, this is. This is working already well for me. Like, I have the calendar of, like, all my events. I have the leaderboard that you know, like, people can forget about it. So it's like the leaderboard of, like, everything, and it's consolidating all the stuff that's happening on chain as well. Your. Content that you're posting anyway. So, like, yeah, it's all there, so it's great. It's a good way to build, like, a cozy corner for, as a content creator, a community or whatever, you know? And I'm sure it's going to get better. Let's see. And we need to get out more, too, so thank you for helping us get the word. Yeah, of course. I think we're also, like, we've been making a lot of noise, but also, I think, reserving it a little bit because we wanted to make sure that before we get a bunch of people to come check out mount space, that they will have a really good first impression that can be really valuable. So I think we're starting to get closer to the point that we really can, like, crank it up a little bit more. Also, this nouns prop passes, we'll be able to focus a lot more on being loud and on marketing and stuff, too. I think that's also something that we want to get done first and is taking up a lot of attention in the meantime. So excited to hopefully get that passed so we can just go back to focusing on building and growing and. Yeah, like, I think we're finally getting to the point where we built this solid foundation. It makes sense to crank up the heat and get as many people to come check it out because you've heard about it, and I appreciate that you've heard what we're saying, but there's a lot of people who have not heard about non space still that I think if they did hear about mount space, they'd be like, this is dope. I love this. I want it. I want it, like, cool, I'm going to go use it right now. But just getting their attention is, like, so hard. Especially, like, at the beginning of a bull market when there's so much stuff getting launched in Farcaster every day and then in the crypto space, it's hard to rise to the top. So, yeah, we started seeing that mini app narrative form I posted. I was like, I shouted into the void, and I'm definitely hearing an echo now. You didn't get any love for like. Oh, nounspace is working on this. Like, some people, I think, but a lot of people have no idea about nonspace, and it's very much on trend with a lot of the stuff that's happening now. So if you have any ideas for how you can get the word out, we're all ears. I have some ideas for this that I'll share with you guys after. I think I'm gonna. It's fine. I'll be boosting this. So, like, if you've used boost XYZ. So this will be on chain, this podcast, and there's some ways to kind of use boost to kind of get the name out there faster. And then if you do that well enough, you can get it in daylight. And then once it's in daylight, it just becomes its own thing. Not that it's like, it's not the same as, like, TikTok viral, obviously. I hope you had some ideas for how to go viral on ticking. Yeah, I think we got to reach out to someone. Maybe hawk to a girl can. Can help us out or something. And you're right. We're not even ready for TikTok loyalty yet. Like, hopefully in a year from now, we'll be ready for that. But, yeah, for now, this sounds great. Yeah. Yeah, I guess. What. What made you guys want to build, like, the dow and space as a token, as a whole? Is it mostly just sustainability long term, and also, like, to see, like, what features people want? Um, yeah. Like, what was kind of the idea behind all that? I'll start, Jesse. Cause, yeah, I think. Jesse, you're on mute, in case you were talking. Oh, yeah, he's muted. Shoot. Sorry. I was getting rid of some of the background noise. I thought we were just, like, trying to see who goes first. You go. Okay, well, a lot of current social media is, like, really, like, attention driven. Like, that's a. Like, a proven method for, like, basically generating tons of money through social media. And if you want to, like, you know, create a new form of social media that isn't attention driven, you have to, like, well, one of them, it's exploring alternative funding sources. Right. Because if you get vc funding, you're going to be expected to return, like, a ten x 100 x return. And our goal with nounspace is not to make tons and tons of money. Our goal is to build something that can be used as this fundamental piece of the Internet that is for everyone. And we think the best way to do that is to let everyone that is involved in the platform and, like, wants to be involved to have a say in how we're building it. So the Dao and the space token kind of serve a couple of different, like, needs for us in that respect. I do like that. Yeah. I mean, I agree. Like you said, you know, it's all attention driven and you're exploring a different model. Yeah, I like that. I mean, it's part of the reason why customizability has gone away, right. Is because all of these interfaces are created to funnel your attention to one specific thing. And if you had this, like, you know, changing interface with, like, information that, like, is presented in different ways, then you lose all that control over funneling users attention. Yeah, I like the, it's interesting. Willy was the first person to tip me in space recently. And something that I think about, like that, it made me think about this actually was like, if someone built a really cool space, like their own space for their portfolio or their profile, tipping them automatically would, like, give them decision making power, which is great. You know, like, that was, it was cool to just see that, like, happen. I was like, oh, like, that's cool. Like, I, I know for me specifically, like, I have, um, you know, I got the airdrop from hedge or whatever, and it's time based, which is also really cool. But just like that, I was like, in the future, you know, like, if for some reason or whatever, it's kind of like, djen, when you're like, why are people doing this thing where it's like money science space? Like, what is all this thing? You know, and then you could just build a cool profile, get tipped in that, and then automatically have some decision making power, whether it's little or small, whatever, to the future of this product and tool, which is really cool. Totally. Meme coins. Nothing against meme coins. Meme coins are great. But I think that governance tokens are for actual projects with users and revenues that also have really good memes. Like, Tom, that is my favorite type of token. And we believe that the future of social should be community owned. Uh, we're a big, and I'm a big believer of, like, we, we all believe in these daos that everyone that's on this call. But I'm a big believer that, like, some of the most successful organizations of the future are going to be community owned organizations. And it's whoever can build the strongest community, basically, and empower that community. So, uh, yeah, like, I agree with Jesse. Like, we're not building now space so that the team can just make a bunch of money. Obviously, if we build something that changes the world, like, we want to get rewarded, but I do want to build something that where our users, our early users and our contributors that add value in our community do make a lot of money. Like, that would make me very happy and satisfied as an old person. If we built something where all these early users were successful and rewarded for their early support, and also in the future, even when announce base is at scale, where you can earn money for the value that you add to the social network, basically like you can get rewarded with minimal middleman, I think that that's incredibly exciting and doesn't exist and a token is a critical part of that. So if we didn't have a token, we couldn't be community owned. We're excited to be basically taking all the learnings that we have from web three and from daos and from tokens and using the latest and the greatest best practices and everything we've learned, trying to create a beautiful economy that is sustainable and where users who contribute and use it and developers who contribute get rewarded. And yeah, we can use all of this amazing technology for like programmable money to do some very cool stuff. So tips are just the beginning. Something that we're very, very excited about is like other utilities that are not just like financial incentives. A lot of the token utilities that are actually like getting traction right now, people like it because the number goes up, right? That's like the killer feature is like you're getting some yield or something like that. You're earning some fees for being a liquidity provider. But what if there's utility related to your social standing? And like the more space you hold or the more space you stake, the higher your posts show up in people's feeds on nonspace, regular to other users. Very interesting stuff for us to explore. So ultimately, the core utility in my mind is governance. But then any utility can extend from that. And it's not just up to the non space team to try and come up with that. But now the whole community of non space users can make proposals and experiment and help us do all this. So I think that's really freaking exciting. But yeah, it's also a little bit stressful. We got the token out there and now we've got to deliver. Basically it works out. I mean, Degen definitely showed that there was desire for people to have some kind of like stake in the success of the farcaster ecosystem, and Degen kind of acted as a proxy for that for a while. But I think now folks have seen. That. It doesn't have a direct correlation. And so I think there's a hunger for that. And space can provide that opportunity as we become a more and more popular client. And then as far as boosting your post, it is, we're not saying you buy space and then send it to us to boost the post. We're saying stake the space so you don't actually lose the value that you've accrued, basically, but you commit it to the network basically becoming more valuable. And not just monetarily, but from a signal to noise standpoint, having stake space boost posts puts a limit on bots being able to spam posts and having that show up in your feed because there's going to be a monetary element associated with it. But without someone actually having to pay, you could at any point unstake that space and then go sell it for the value that it has. Yeah, no, I understand what you're saying. I think moxie's exploring something like that too, like boosting. There's like some kind of boost feature that they're doing on their side. So, and it goes back to kind of like to the modularity of the, or like the choices that you could have with non space, you know, like kind of what I was talking about, like for the feed, you know, you could change the algo from like, you know, the warp cast one to, to an airstack one to an ounce based one, you know, and if you don't want to participate, you're like, look, I don't care about any of this stuff regarding space, regarding the boosting of space. People, like, just use the warpcast algo and you're good to go, you know, like, that's how I feel. Like, that's what I think is cool, you know, about what you guys are building. And also, like you said, the token helps you with the programmable money you could do grants on. Or a bounty, I guess. I don't even know what the word is, but a bounty for someone to come build a fidget, we can do. Fun stuff we can have. Tom's got more followers than Jesse and I, so one fun idea is every day Tom will cast one thing. That's the top voted cast from the nonspace community, right? Like, whatever it is, like, he'll, as long as it's the top loader thing, tom's gonna cast it, right? Like very fun stuff that we can do that tokens make possible. Damn. See, I know you got the right person out there, man. Like, I'm barely like dipping my toes into dows and you're, you're already over here thinking about that. That's awesome. That is kind of funny. Tons of things that we can do. And I think, like, you know, the now space universe is gonna grow exponentially at a certain point, but yeah, our focus, like right now, we are trying to focus in a way that makes using this platform and making it valuable to you, something that is digestible and creating some happy paths to getting to that quickly without having to deal with too much complexity. Yeah, I did like the way you described it. I don't think my brain hadn't gone to this point regarding the canva website builder. And now that you've said it and put that thought into my head now, that's all I could think about in my head now. And website builder with social, because that's important to highlight that there's a lot of website builders out there, but without decentralized social stuff like Farcaster, they couldn't really live together happily. And so it's a new opportunity that these decentralized social protocols make possible that we're jumping on. And one other really interesting thing to mention is that we're not married to Farcaster. Nonspace is a layer on top. And while we love Farcaster, it's our favorite decentralized social protocol. It doesn't have to be the only social network that nonspace can read and write to and from. So a big opportunity and just another differentiator from Warpcast. Like, I don't think Warpcast is ever going to integrate other social protocols. Understandably, nonspace can. So something to think about also, yeah, it'd be nice if we can take down the barrier so that you don't even need a forecaster account to get in on space, but it's an opt in thing. If you want to sign up or connect your forecaster account, they can at least get in there and start connecting, like all this other stuff that you have on your space that can be useful access, like the website builder functionality and yeah, have a new cool web three consumer crypto app. Like, we need more cool things for people to do that are in web three that aren't scary when you first sign up. So hopefully, hopefully we can be one of these killer apps for this next cycle. Kamala, how are we doing on time here? We're good. I know we scheduled for an hour 15, so if you need me to wrap it up, we can wrap it up too. Just wondering for your time. Oh, I'm good. I had one more topic to bring up on the go ahead. The giving people more ways to interact with web three. I want to give a shout out to privy because we're not the only client that's thinking about this, but creating an account in a social network that just has a wallet under the hood is a much more accessible way to interact with web three and using fidgets within noun space because we have a smart wallet under the hood, which privy really helps with. You're not going to have to think about installing a separate browser extension. You're not going to have to have maybe some weird pop ups that you don't understand. We can process everything through our own UI and make it much more user friendly. Privy has done some pretty neat stuff in terms of basically, if multiple websites are using privy as their login system, you can share the same wallet across those websites, which I think is really dope because you avoid the issue of the isolated wallet per website, where you just have tokens that get lost, that are isolated in an island. Yeah, I had that recently happened because I used friend pet, like, really early on, and I think I must have used different emails or something. I forget, like, the login method, and I had, like, four or three privy wallets that were just for different apps. And I was like, this is getting ridiculous now. Like, and I'm already, like, pretty good about having hot, warm, cold wallethood set up, like, system setup anyways. And I was like, this is messing with my vibe. Like, I'm a pretty organized person. Like, in this privy thing is destroyed is messing it up for me. But it's gotten better now. And I agree with you. Like, it's. It's, it's dangerous. And they're also embedding themselves in Solana as well, so that's pretty cool, too. So, you know, as much as we want to be Ethereum, Maxis, like, Solana's doing some pretty cool stuff, too. A lot of users want to come use noun space. We're cool with it, you know? Right, come on over. And I know Solana is even exploring doing their own decentralized protocol, too, for social. I know that was announced pretty recently and. Yeah, and kind of what you guys were saying, too, like, firefly, like, you could support lens. I think that's like, yep, even blue. Sky, you know, get out of the web three, space. Or even link. Trying to, like, link your web two, presence with your web three, presence. Did you see they just did a, like, ethereum follow protocol ens. I don't know if it was actually ens, but it was Brantley from Ens announced this a couple of days ago. So, yeah, even just giving, like, every Ens name or even just every Ethereum address, like, a profile basically, that they can use will be pretty cool. So, so much to build. And so that's why so much to build. Yeah, we are focusing, I think. So much we could build. So much we could build. There you go. We're going to try to keep that feedback loop between our users and our building as tight as we can during this next cycle. And if you're listening in your community that would love non space and would like to be one of these pilot communities that has the opportunity to really inform our roadmap, then our DM's are open. Discord channel is a great place to come get in touch with the noun space team or just cast at us. Ideally from noun space, but any client breaks. Yeah. If you go to nounspace.com, comma, the discord's right there, bottom left. Perfect. Yeah, that's. I'll make sure to link everything too so people can get to these places. Let's see. I think I have like two more if that's good with you guys. All right. I think you were bringing it up. Yeah. What is kind of motivating you guys to kind of continue forward from the prop, from the tool? Like just everything, you know, because like you said, there's a, there's a lot happening in the space. There's a lot you could build. There's the market itself. Isn't that great either? You know, like every week we have a new company, but every other week, too. We're also losing great companies as well. Yeah. What keeps you guys kind of motivated to be in a pretty challenging space, too, on top of like that, like, you're not just choosing to build. I mean, you're essentially competing with warpcast like this. The easiest way to. And then maybe, you know, Twitter and Facebook someday. Exactly. So, like, yeah, pretty big arena. Pretty big competitive arena. What's moving you guys forward on this? Well, I can jump in. Yeah, go ahead, Willy. I think both Jesse and I were pretty fortunate to be in a position where we're flexible, where we can kind of choose what we want to build. We don't, we don't have to. We're not forced to go work on something that we don't want to work on. So, yeah, I think it's very fortunate to be able to work on something that we believe in and that we're excited about and passionate about and want to exist and want to use ourselves. Like, it's just very energizing. It gives me, like, a lot of energy and joy and happiness. I can't imagine networking for something that I don't want to believe in or that I don't believe in and there's nothing that I can imagine that I would rather invest my time and energy into building than the community on future of social that brings together web three, all this other content from outside and has the potential for, like, AI to play a role and to empower users to actually access this AI while also, like, combating the potential negative effects of, like, AI proliferating and having all these bot accounts, like, could get very messy. It's like it checks all the different boxes for me. So definitely, like, the passion is there. But then also I think just something I wanted to mention is that an interesting thing happens with startups where like, at some point you get so far into it that you also have all this pressure, basically from all of your users, your communities, these people who now hold space tokens, the nouns community, that's given us a grant, the team, that also becomes a really strong motivator for me. Basically it starts passion, and I still have that passion, but then I also just have this pressure to deliver and basically do what we set out to do, which becomes, I hate to fail. I hate to not accomplish what we said we're going to accomplish and set out to do. So that's big for me. Final thing I'll say is that, yeah, something. I'm probably a little bit crazy, but I love these big ideas. I have a little bit of add. So, like, to just try and solve one small problem, I can't imagine doing that for many years. But to be able to create a platform, or we empower people to build all sorts of cool stuff, all these different miniapps, like, I'm never going to get bored with noun space. So for me, it's perfect. And, yeah, shout out to nouns for basically inspiring the idea because we wouldn't be doing this if they hadn't put that RFp up. Yeah, shout out nouns, cool community. Yeah, that's what I'm, that's what got me to purchase one finally. I was like, okay, this is great. I think. I mean, Willy hits on a lot of points that I, that really resonate with me as well. I mean. I just think that there are some things that are broken in, like the Internet right now, and I think a lot of people recognize it and have been talking about it for a long time. There's a general kind of dissatisfaction with kind of the dystopian nature of our social networks. And for me, seeing like, Elon Musk buy Twitter, I was like, think what you like about Elon Musk. But I think having individuals have that much power over the global town square as it were, is just not good for society. Um, we. We have these siloed, like. Like, completely locked down, controlled platforms that we digest most of the Internet through. Um, and we've lost a lot of the, like, early, like, beautiful aspects of the Internet where people were kind of like, uh, you know, building it together, you know, in all of their. Their own contributions. And we have the opportunity in web three to bring that back and bring it back in a way that's much more resilient and potentially competitive in ways to the existing systems, that it'll fracture them in ways that they can't pivot towards. Farcaster offers people the ability to own their social network and to take it with them from client to client, because that social network is at the protocol level. And then nounspace is bringing back that creativity. And so this project is combining a lot of stuff about what excites me in technology, in how technology can empower people and then be a tool for positive change in humanity. Technology is always shaped by the society that uses it, but we can act on the technology as well. We can build tools that have positive feedback loops with us. Yeah, that's a beautiful way to say Farcaster made it possible to own your own followers and your data, like you said. And then I think I liked about how now space is almost like bringing back a way to have some skin in the game or ownership over the client itself. So it's another layer, a level above that, too, and bringing that level of creativity and all that. So, no, that's a good way to describe it, man. Ownership. Ownership. Ownership. Collective ownership. Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly it. Control back to the users as opposed to the centralized giants that are Facebook and Twitter. It's kind of what brought me to. I mean, it's what brought a lot of us, I'm sure, to decentralize social is all those thoughts. All right, so to wrap it up, one last question, just some context in case you're like, wait, why the hell is he asking this? So I've asked every guest of my podcast what their favorite stack is, and it's because I used to call the newsletter, it was like a reference to stacked, like, snack sized bits of data or information. So just something we've done for. For everyone. So, yeah, give it some thought. What is your guys favorite snack? I got mine. I love it. All right, so why do. My favorite snack is apples, walnuts, and cheese, but, like, in a little, like, little, like, knapsack, but, like, taken with you on a hike and you, like, stop under the shade of a tree. And you have, like, that combo right there is just like, I don't know, it's very idyllic. It kind of has like a little bit of a, like, I'm a, you know, Lord of the rings Hobbit on an adventure. And this is my, my vittles that I brought with me. We gotta go on a hike. We gotta break some of that. So. Cause I wanna feel. That's so fun. You didn't give you the sack. You also gave me the story behind it, too. I love it. That was a great why? Because I'm like, how do you answer the why? I think you're right, too. Like, that snack sounds like it'd be even better on the go in a park or on a hike or something that just, like, at home. Yeah. What about you, Willie? I am. My favorite snack is these pistachios that are pre shelled, which I often get a hard time that people are like, oh, pre shelled pistachios. You're too good to crack them. And I just love, I really like pistachios. And it's like, it feel, does feel pretty royal and luxurious. Just like, shovel them into your mouth. And I really like the spicy chili roasted ones from. They're spicy. So I love those. So I always get a. Get a bag of those. I love that. It looks serious. Yeah, you don't have to. I'm not a peasant here. Cracking open each nut. Too much. That's hilarious. I know what you mean. Like, some days I'm like, dude, I just want to eat pistachios. Like, just handful. So I understand. I get where you're coming from. The chili ones, though, I definitely like them, I think in their shell, because they, like the shell captures a lot more of the, of the chilliness. So, yeah, mine's PB and J. Can never go wrong with PB and J's. Classic. Yeah, and you gotta go ham on the peanut butter and the jelly. You know, a lot of people skimp out. Like, you gotta just go. You gotta go ham. I agree. I always. Too much. It's gotta ooze. Awesome. Well, thanks again for doing this, guys. Yeah. Where should people. I know you said it a little earlier, you know, go to the. Go to the website, join the discord. But, yeah, where should people find out more about either of you guys downspace? Where should they go? Well, we also have the noun space channel on Farcaster. And definitely, if there's updates, they're going to pop up, show up there. Noun space. Tom. Yes. Definitely follow noun space. Tom, he posts a lot of alpha. He does. And then I'm realitycrafter on most platforms. I got to follow you because I don't think I do right now. Yep, come to nounspace.com. check out the fair launch too. So when you go to nounspace.com, you'll see a link to the, check out the space token and the space token fair launch. And then there's also a team tab there that has like links from each of the team members to their farcaster profiles. If you want to dm anybody, if you like what you're hearing, definitely come to natspace.com. and like Jesse said, there's a link to the discord. We got a pretty awesome community. So if you want to be a part of the community building the future of social come hang out with us in discord is where we do a lot of, where we hang out mostly. In fact, a lot of us on the team will just like sometimes be hanging out in public voice channels. So you can literally just come in and like ask us questions or get help customizing your space if you want that. Uh, and yeah, get involved. If you're interested in getting involved, would. Love to chat, come hang. Awesome. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I'm going to join the discord. Uh, and then for anybody else too, just listening. Uh, if you're a nouner, make sure you go vote on prop 647 as well, which I'll have the link for that as well. Alright, welcome back. Before we log off this week's cast off, and for those that don't know cast off is a segment where I want to hear from you, the audience. This week's cast off question is, what do you think about alternative VAR clients? Is it worth trying them out? Investing your time in creating one? I don't know. Let me know if you're hearing this message you've listened to the entire episode on pods, and for that I want to thank you. If you're listening to this on pods. Make sure to collect the episode. Again, it comes with voting governance now that's a new thing. And if you're on pods, make sure to subscribe on your favorite app, your web two app. I drop episodes every two weeks, and this way you can get notified as the episodes come out. If you did like this episode, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts, make sure to share this episode with anyone interested in the topic. If you're a nouner, you know, check out my other episodes and, yeah, feel free to let me know and reach out if you want to see any specific people or topics covered. Again, you can now vote for specific people. I'm going to probably be doing this every three months, but you can still. Get in touch with me. All right, see you next episode. See you.