Palmera

In this episode, we dive deep into the complexities and opportunities of managing decentralized organizations on-chain. We'll explore innovative ideas like using  tokens ($DEGEN) to foster community engagement and the potential expansion of platforms like Farcaster and Degen chain.

Our conversation tackles some of the toughest challenges facing startups today, such as monetization, building trust with communities, and navigating the volatile landscape of crypto and blockchain technology. We'll also touch on the technical hurdles of deploying safe contracts and the importance of integrating advanced functionalities like superfluid/stream payments.

As always, we'll bring you insights into the personal journeys of our guests, their experiences in the crypto world, and how they're working towards making decentralized, permissionless organizations a reality. Whether you're a blockchain enthusiast, an entrepreneur, or just curious about the future of digital assets.

00:00 Podcast discussing digital art, on-chain organizations.
10:16 Helping groups manage assets on chain. Aggregation layer.
12:19 Building experiences with composable, interoperable tools for organizations.
18:13 Simplify: Becoming a decentralized, cost-effective company.
23:03 Advocating for blockchain and transparent governance systems.
30:51 Companies using biomedical tech for resource allocation.
34:06 Initial enterprise approach, payment in milestones agreed.
38:24 Desire for connection and better tools.
48:42 Discussing committees, NFTs and less political narrative.
52:56 Security paramount, trust crucial, processes not established.
01:00:19 Engineer encountered challenges deploying contracts, configuring infrastructure.
01:01:05 Understanding transaction process and creating secure chains.
01:11:45 Supports safe, built from official safe contracts.
01:15:36 Audience feedback on Daos and related tools.

Music & Sounds By: Lakey Inspired
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Transcript

0:00

You know, the institutions are not as strong. It's more. There is corruption is a lot more common and more obvious, I'm going to say, because I think there's a little bit of corruption everywhere. And this is the sort of places where on chain organizations really make sense, because even if the cop, like the country, something happens and then you have a dictator, cannot take away the resources of you. Welcome back to another episode of behind the screen Wicker Maho, the podcast where we unravel the stories, the insights, the secrets of top tier artists, avid collectors, and innovative builders shaping the digital frontier, better known as Web three. I'm your host, Romajo, an average crypto enthusiast that's been in the space since 2012. Yeah. Welcome back to another episode. I'm excited to be doing this one with you guys. This week, I sat down with Palmera, which is co founded by Jose and Andy, two Latino Americans in Switzerland, and they're pretty much trying to tackle on chain organization and mobilization and the tooling on it while using other apps in the ecosystem. So essentially, as a user of an on chain organization, you would just show up to their app and you could plug and play into a bunch of other different kind of tools available to you to make the operations and the running of your on chain organization more effective. So, really learned a lot about daos, on chain organizations, communities, what they're up to, and, yeah, it was a great talk, so I hope you enjoy it. Yeah. So we could start with intros. Why don't you kick us off, Jose? Sure. A little bit of an intro about yourself, and then we could jump into Palmera after that. Like an intro. Definitely. First of all, thanks for the invitation. Really, really glad to be here and excited about sharing what we're doing at Palmeira and everything related to Daos and on chain organizations. So a little bit about myself. I'm Jose Ramirez. I'm from Bolivia. I'm a computer scientist. I have been building software for more than ten years, and more specifically within crypto since 2017, when I started, like, digging into the rabbit hole. And I didn't leave it until who knows when. And just a little bit about what I did within those crypto years. I was working for quickly for a blockchain enterprise. So. So for two years. And then in 2020, I joined a crypto bank in Switzerland, and I helped building the custody system of the bank, like, basically for Ethereum. So a lot of smart contracts, multisigs, audits, and the whole setup. And then two years later, in 2022, we started Palmera. So I'm gonna stop there so we can, we can have more details after that. Yes. Just an issue on you. Just myself. Sure. So originally born and raised in Guatemala, had the chance to study computer science for the tech in the US. Did a couple of years at Microsoft after that. Then I delved a bit into hardware, some double software, running servers and stuff like that with the startup that did very well, but, you know, kind of started reading about Ethereum. 2015 2016. I fell in love with the idea of a global state machine and kind of removing middleman and just kind of all the new use cases that something that it's not controlled by anyone, but you can rely to be there all the time for the new use cases that, that will unlock. I fill them up with that idea. So started going deeper into Ethereum, moved to Switzerland. We started a hedge fund with a couple of friends there, and we realized that there were no essentially accounting solutions back then. There's only one cold contracting, and it wasn't done with a lot of heart. So we built one called acquainting. So helped out quite a bit on that. Yeah. And then after that I met Jose, and as he said, we started going to conferences. We got invited to this group that was essentially helping to advise the swiss government on Defi and stuff like that, and start doing hackathons and projects. And, yeah, we kind of realized also a little bit more into Dallas. I was kind of running a small creating desk, and I wanted to kind of subdivide, essentially the teams to use their saves. I didn't want to pay fire blocks. Fire blocks was very expensive and didn't make sense to me that we would rely on, even if it was MPC and a sort of EOA with some server configurations. So, you know, I wanted to use safe and it was impossible. So we started brainstorming with Jose and that's how we, I guess, got started. Oh, that's awesome, man. Andy, I'm also from Guatemala as well. That's hilarious. Yeah, I saw, I saw your, which is. I love Micheladas. Oh, no, me too, man. It's funny because, well, you know, Michelaz are like traditionally known as like a mexican drink, I would say, at least I hear in the US, like in California. But this little guatemalan place where I live, they make the best michelas. And it's like, surprising to me that guatemalan place is making good michelas. But that's awesome that you guys are both Latinos. Are you guys in Palmera? Are you guys in Spain? Or are you guys in Switzerland? Right now we're based in Switzerland. Four Basin, Switzerland. Just a boy. I think my wifi is doing great, so I think we can turn the high quality in the videos again. All right, let's see. Should be able to now. All right, so you guys are in Switzerland. That's cool. So you guys. You guys ended up meeting. So you guys met at hackathons and stuff like that? Like, at conferences and then, like, first block off conferences. Yeah, we had a little group of people that was looking into helping the swiss government formulate better opinions about DeFi. So we got invited into this group, and then that's how we met. And we started going to conferences. Theorem conferences, mostly. And then we did a couple hackathons together, and then we just really enjoyed working together. We were also, like, kind of like two. I don't want to say the only, but, like, you know, we live in a small town in Switzerland, suit, which is called the crypto Valley, so there's not that many Latin Americans, and even less Americans warp any crypto. So it's kind of. Yeah, it's quite kind of weird intersection. Yeah, that's awesome. I love that. That that's how the world works sometimes, you know, like, it's like two Latin Americans in Switzerland I used to work for. So I work in the. I used to work, actually now I just changed jobs in the pharma space, and a lot of offices are in the pharmaceutical industry. So a lot of companies are in Switzerland for us. Like, our us or EU based offices, like, headquarters is in Switzerland. Just a lot of pharma companies are out there. And, yeah, there's not many Latino Americans, like, there. And then, like you said, in crypto, too, is even a small. Yeah, that's awesome. And we're both very passionate about it, and I guess we've been following it for quite a number of years. So we also had that side always kind of looking into what. What new, or the new things happening and how they were. And we're both computer scientists, so kind of, like, understanding how things work kind of really is something that we pursue quite aggressively. Just understanding that. Yeah, yeah. So let's get a little bit into what Palmera does. And for the people, kind of not familiar. So would you say then, like, fireblocks is kind of like the enterprise or, you know, like the heavy hammer that's, like, too big? And you guys were looking. You guys saw a problem there where it was too expensive or not really accessible to small medium businesses? Yeah, I mean, we mostly wanted to kind of help groups manage assets rights on chain, and there's many ways to do so. A lot of people are using safe. Palmiero is completely based on the safe quote protocol. They're a fantastic team and they've been doing a great job for the last couple of years. And honestly, I think they have over 100 billion in TDL, which is super impressive. And yeah, mostly what we wanted to do was kind of helping these teams that were managing their assets on chain and kind of extend that to the level that it can replace fire blocks. And we believe it can do so much more than that, really. The idea is we're building an aggregation layer for composable tools. So we are like the heart of it is safe, but there's a lot of compostable tools out there that are really amazing, such as super fluid savor hats is also a fantastic tool. There's other tools that are not as compulsible, but they're also very helpful, such as the work charmverse. And really what we're trying to do is essentially create a sort of blue combined text together. And the reason why we kind of got to this conclusion is because there are many organizations out there. Most people, when they refer to crypto and organizations, they think about DAos. And Daos are a fantastic way to essentially decentralize organizations. But we, in the current definition, if you kind of like, look at the way people are running DAos essentially has this whole political system attached with the technology. And we believe that's one iteration that it will keep evolving and it will keep changing. So the only way that groups such as ours can essentially build experiences with this, it's like if there's a layer of composable tools that essentially can work together and are interoperable, creating this sort of like label structures for organizations and really our drive, or we want to be essentially helping groups that want to manage assets on chain without charging them what fire blocks charges institutions, which is a very specific use case, but we don't believe the majority of use cases, the majority of users.org and essentially afford to pay such business model. So we're looking for more creative ways for us to support organizations in the future. And right now it might be a bit niche, but to us, the most exciting thing about crypto is incentives and groups. I think that's the superpower of crypto, which something very magical happens when you kind of look into a project and then you like it, and all of a sudden you buy your NFT or you buy the tonkin. And all the sudden, since it's decentralized, you kind of feel like it's yours. And I don't think there's many things previous to crypto that gave you that. Maybe, you know, the football fans in the US or the soccer fans in Madrid, you know, even. Even though you have. You're not from Madrid, you feel like, you know, you're part of Madrid. And I think that's something that is very similar to what the communities are building with this incentives that gives you this, like, sense of belonging, which is combined with an incentive in a borderless way. So, yeah, so we think there's a lot of area there that we want to build around, and we just want to be part of this ecosystem of composable tools, and we're essentially building Google to put them together for groups. Yeah, that's awesome. I agree with you, too. I think that relationship between consumer or end user and brands, it usually was reserved for the highest echelons of society. So in terms of, like you said, Real Madrid, Arsenal, Barcelona, but even in fashion, it would be like Louis Vuitton or Goyard, it would be like, those were the brands that usually had the success in thinking about it as a brand, and it was a sense of belonging or community for whatever reason. It happened at the smaller scale, too, a little bit. But, you know, I think that's something that's like the crypto world's been learning since we've moved into this model. It's kind of like, you know, like, for example, for me, like, as a creator, you know, like, I would never consider myself like a brand or whatever, but, like, that's kind of what it is. You know, you're gathering other humans that either find you funny or, you know, find your content funny or agree with you in your alignment, like, in terms of your thought process. Like, even for, like, Daos, you know, it's like. Like, yes, there's a structure part, but, you know, it's like, with. Yeah, you could build a coffee dao, and everyone just likes coffee. Like, that's what it is, you know? Like, yeah, I think that's. That's one of the main points. Why are we here? Right? Like, having an open system that is decentralized, permissionless, where anyone can just join and be part of the community that he belongs to or she thinks he belongs to. So I make it in a decentralized way, make everything easier. Yeah. And like you said, you know, fire blocks for, like, let's say, you know, fire blocks can make sense for, you know, like a financial institution or, like, flamingo. Dow or something like that. You know, like, that's like a big Dao with, like, you know, going after art and making like, large, heavy acquisitions, but like something like my coffee Dao as an example. You know, not everything needs that big of a solution or an expensive solution. Sometimes you just need to be able to, you know, on top of, like, the great thing about, like, forecaster. What I see with Daos is, like, it's great at, like, coordination and, and some of the other pain points that Daos used to have, like last bull run, which is like, you know, people weren't participating or gas cost a lot of money to, like, boat or to submit proposals or whatever because it was all on ethel one. Or like the main net, basically, versus some base where it's like, cost pennies. And, like, the us in a place like the US or Switzerland, you know, like, obviously spending a dollar or less or a euro to submit a proposal, it's not the end of the world for us because we live in high income places. But a dollar in Guatemala, I'm going to think twice before I even propose anything because that's a lot more. $1 in Guatemala is also not too bad, but I'll think about it a little bit more as opposed to here. I'm like, a dollar, Mandy. I buy things for a dollar all the time. Like. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Agreed. Agreed. I wanted to ask a little bit more, so, and pardon if this is like the, you know, a very crude way of describing what you guys are, but is it, would you say that it's a safe wallet that manages other safe wallets? Right now, the easiest way to, I guess, simplify what we do is we are big slaves, where you manage multiple safe smart counts. That's the easiest way, and that's what the majority of our users use us for. And I think that's the best way to start right now. But really what we want to do is we want to essentially be one of this set of companies that is essentially leveraging composable dapps to build experiences, to essentially facilitate the life and the operation of on chain organizations to the point that maybe at some point they will replace traditional companies. And this is potentially in a place like Switzerland or the US or maybe France. Kind of sounds a bit funny, because why do you need to do this? Why do you need to get companies to be decentralized? And it's not really, that is the decentralization. What is the main aspect here is more like the ease of use and how cost effective it is. I was doing some analysis, like, let's say if you look at what's the cost to start a company in a place like make raw, it's around$1,200. That is, you know, on average, someone in Nicaragua makes around $2,000 a year. So that's 65% of their average income per capita. So that's a massive effort. If you do it in any other day or two, it'll be a couple of cents. Right now, the average number of days to incorporate a company in the world everywhere is 20 days. Whereas with a multisig, you can put something up and essentially a couple of minutes, but you need to go through the experience. You need to do it automatically. It takes you seconds. Right. So those are essentially like very real advantages to essentially organizing groups of humans on chain. And the other thing is that when you're incorporating in developing countries, we got different people that are running. The countries can swing from left to right very aggressively. The institutions are not as strong. Corruption is a lot more common and more obvious, I'm going to say, because I think there's a little bit of corruption everywhere. And this is the sort of places where on chain organizations really make sense, because even if the cop, like the country, something happens and then you have a dictator, cannot take away the resources of the common or the organization. And I think those are fantastic as a way to decentralize in the future. We're not only using on chain organizations as daos, where the main component of it is being decentralized and therefore it cannot be censored, but more as a mechanism to essentially manage assets in countries where you cannot rely on the local jurisdiction. Yeah, that's, that's a big. That's a big. That's like a lofty goal. That's a very lofty goal. I'd say, you know, it's not like, it's funny because, like, it sounds like, you know, from the outside looking in, it was it, I would say, like, you know, it just looks like you're, like you said, helping manage assets, but, like, really, that's like a huge problem that you're trying to solve. And it's a very real problem. Like you said, you know, like, you know, not in Tina, you could have, on top of inflation, it can go, like you said, right to left very quickly. And even in the US, same thing, right to left. In terms of presidencies and somewhat, our institutions are a little bit not impacted as much, maybe when it goes that way. I'd argue that they are a little bit just based on the amount of executive orders that get executed here in the US when that happens. Um, but yeah, in other countries, like, you know, like you said, in Guatemala or in El Salvador or somewhere else, you know, like the institutions are, they can get influenced a lot more and there's corruption everywhere, like you said, so. Wow. Yeah. Like if, if that's what you guys are trying to, I mean, I think. Even the fact that long term vision, we got to. Yeah, yeah, no, no, I get that. Yeah, yeah, no, I understand. That's a very long term vision. Yeah, but it says like we're more in it for like essentially the power of the global state machine that is uncorruptible. And I guess I'm a solar porn in the sense that at some point there needs to be jurisdictions that are okay with organizations being unchained. Maybe I shouldn't say with so many libertarians, but maybe at some point there's going to be, uh, ways where you can prove taxes to your authorities using, you know, cK techniques and things like that. So I still think there is, uh, I think at this point, at least personally, to me, kind of going the full anarchist way is, uh, doesn't seem viable. Um, so I think there needs to be essentially a process where, um, we can reveal information to the government because taxes do have a place right now and I don't think that's going to go away because just as a society, I don't think we're ready for that. Maybe in the distant future. But I do believe that it's going to be a lot of steps. And this is why I think kind of building composable dapps to kind of put together this operating system for groups is so important. Yeah, I think with what you're saying, it almost sounds like. Are you familiar with atlas? Like the stripe tool? I've heard of it. I've heard of it, yeah. Yeah. So like it helps companies. You know, I think even the goal of like trying to get people incorporated and coordinated, you know, not coordinated like all the way, but like even just to like form coordination of the wallets or assets and, and even like incorporating into an LLC or you, you know, some kind of on chain body like. That there is towards the US, right? Yeah. Atlas is towards the US. Yeah. I actually just saw, I'm sure you guys saw it. Some guy on forecaster posted like a way to incorporate an l via frame. Yeah, yeah. And it's like a Swiss LLC. So like, I mean, the great thing with it, you're saying what you were saying earlier where you're you're using. I forgot the word that you were using. But like, basically other technologies, you can incorporate those, like superfluid, you can incorporate that technology to help. Yeah, at the end, we just want to make all the available, like, tools that are there, be ready for any organization to use. So we can be like the entry points for any new organization. Like it's coming from the traditional world or more from like a NGO point of view. They want to get into like, and get the advantage of crypto. Just go to our, our system and they can do like, streaming payments, they can do swaps, they can do governance, they can do like the treasury management side as a composable. Yeah, it's kind of like Dan and B. And like the Merkel team, it's like the Legos you guys are going after, almost like the Lego building of like, what? Like the entry point. And then once you're there, it's like, you know, if you want to manage your wallets, it's this, you know, here's this tool. And if you want to incorporate into an LLC in this country, here's this tool that you could use. And it's all one, you know, front end or one interface. So that's awesome. Yeah. And if you wanted to do, like you said, taxes on the back end, like, here's another tool that you could kind of plug into that helps you build some kind of report to submit to authorities to on your tax liabilities or whatever. So that's awesome. That's a good, good thing to look at. Yeah, I think. Because if we can go ahead. Like, if we can tap into, I mean, I think of money as like, um, essentially energy. Right. Uh, so, you know, when you have a lot of, you're really rich. We got a lot of energy to the earth and other, other, let's say, organizations, groups, people can tap into that energy to create all the results that maybe you, since you got, you know, uh, you got one brain, one cpu, you can do certain amount of processing, you can kind of use that and spread the money in a more efficient way, regardless of orders. And I do agree that there needs to be some level of anti money laundering. And I don't know where you're in that stack in brahma ho. I guess here in Switzerland, they're very strict with this kind of stuff. Uh, so we're used to it. And, uh, they're being in crypto for a bit and seeing like some of, uh, the sort of scams that people can do because I was like a pure libertarian uh, and after you kind of seeing all that chaos now, I'm not so much of a libertarian. I was like, ah, maybe a couple of rules are okay. Uh, and, uh, yeah. But essentially putting it all together into one roof and leveraging composable dapps and making it so the tools are interoperable. And I think there's going to be different sort of political systems for this on chain organizations, the same way that we have seen accounting systems such as GAAP or other source of accounting systems, and there's going to be, or different management structures, and I think there's going to be an opportunity for different uxs and uis to essentially instantiate a certain modus operandi or a certain mindset of how you should run an on chain organization, all using, essentially dapps that can digitalize, where you can trace things. And hopefully, as the technology advances, we can add more privacy layers to make sure that, essentially privacy is baked in and you only reveal. What you need to reveal is we need to reveal it if you aren't revealed. Yeah, I'm not going to get into the wash trading or. Yeah, money laundering. That's like a whole can of worms, that. It's a whole can of worms. Yeah. Maybe they shouldn't have mentioned it. Yeah, no, no, you're good. You're. You're. You're good. You're good. I think, like, that's a. I think we should have a chat meeting you on that as a whole. I want to talk about. I want to make sure people, like, you know, can see kind of the use cases. I saw it very quickly for me, like, when I was reading your guys documentation one. I liked the name, too. The colors and the logo are great. Thank you. A lot of effort. Yeah. Just. We're not designers. Yeah. No. Fantastic people to work with us, but, yeah. Because it also decided. Oh, Jesus. What? Oh, God. That's where I'm at right now. I've been trying to come up with logos for, like, you know, trying to come, like, up with, like, a unified brand. And. Yeah, it's not good either for me. I was like, I need to outsource this a little bit. Speaking of the compostable apps. So I know you mentioned superfluid, so just cause, like, superfluid, at least from, like, what I've seen, you know, I've only seen it used in alpha friends, for example. Um, how are. How are companies or people that are using biomedical, how are they using that? Like, from my understanding, like, and you could tell me if this is right or wrong is like, let's say I spun up on you. Let's say I had a new initiative, right? Like the initiative is I want to open up an office in the US, right? And as a, you know, company allocator or money allocator, person allocator, whatever. Like resource allocator. I want to spend, I'd say 100 ETH to do this initiative. Would I just spin up like safe wallets? That's literally, we'll call it like us expansion team or something like that. And then with superfluid, instead of moving 100 Eth immediately into it, it would just. We could start a stream that would move it from one wallet, like, let's say you're treasury wallet to, to this us expansion wallet. And it would kind of go, you know. Yeah. As a stream, essentially. Yeah. There's a lot of people using streams in different ways. I think probably the most popular one is for token vesting. So, you know, they would kind of be able to say, okay, there's going to be a specific stream that's going to run at a specific frequency. I think you can get it all the way to the blocklet frequency. So you can essentially get paid a specific number of tokens every unit of time. So a lot of people are using it for that. I know Saglar had a bit more advanced functionality in terms of how you create a vesting function with different flips and then different proportions. So you can, uh, code out the stepwise function, basically. I know, I think, uh, supersold is also getting to that. I'm not sure if they've reused it yet. Um, so that's one thing, uh, the other thing that people are doing is just to, uh, kind of for subscription. So we gone. I haven't seen that in a while yet. But a lot of people are kind of, instead of paying Netflix, you know, your $10 a month or whatever it is now, you can essentially create a stream. So you would be aim to help this service provider over specific amount of time. That can be a lot smaller. So you can play. You can essentially pay for Rada. So if you want to cancel it, it'll cancel it for Rada. So that's another very interesting use case. And then there's the other use case of like, you know, some people are, well, want to essentially deliver some sort of milestone. But we've seen that when there's a milestone or there's like clear gates right now within Dallas, the. The modus operandi is like, you would set like a bounty at the end of the. Of the milestone. And if they achieve the milestone, they get. They get the money, and that seems to be working quite nicely. Yeah, that's exactly how I was thinking about it initially. At first, it was like, you know, like, since I work at enterprises, this is what I'm kind of familiar with is like, you know, like, I'll sign even for, like, let's say, the logo design, you know, that you guys were doing, you know, like, you can be like, all right, when you do. When you submit version one of the logo where it's like, you know, rough, like ten rough drafts or whatever, you know, that's milestone one and a milestone one, I'll pay you 25% of the fee that we agreed to or whatever, and then we'll have revisions, and then I'll do another 25%, and then once you're done, you know, I'll do the last 50 or whatever, once all the deliverables. So I was kind of thinking about it in that way as well. But, yeah, I think you're right. If it's one milestone base, it's like that. If it's like, four contributors that are being paid and the token or vesting, then we'll see superfluity use quite often, or also, say there, both very pumpkins, very projects. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, and it's cool. It sounds like you guys are, you know, like you're supporting that within your. Your tool natively, so that's really cool. Yeah, I mean, it was one of the main big use cases that we saw. So that's why we integrated, like, as one of the top in the top priority about utility. Yeah. Yeah, that's really cool. No, I really like where you guys are headed in terms of, like, your stack, essentially, and, like, how you're integrating all these other technologies and just enabling companies or, you know, decentralized organizations kind of do their operations. So with that said, like, last bull run, you know, like, there was a lot of daos made, but, like, a lot of daos, you know, have lost activity. Like, they haven't had as much success, you know, getting people to vote or participate or do proposals. How do you. How do you. How do you guys feel like this next bull run will be now that. Because from. From what I'm seeing from the outside in is, like, I'm just seeing a lot better tooling available to us, like, including you guys to make these more exciting, essentially. So, like, you know, like, with frames, you now don't even have to go to a separate app to vote, you know, for a proposal, you could actually just read it all in the frame. Obviously, it's not like the best experience, but, like, you know, you really don't have to leave now with Farcaster to go to these separate apps to take action or participate in a DAO. So, like, what do you guys think will most likely happen? I guess, like, what is some speculation that you see there? Do you think we'll have, like a. In terms of revitalization of daos? We'll see more daos, yeah. Yeah. And such a pretty good question. I heard that there's a study that says that daos in reality of the people are actually active. Very rarely they cross the dunk bar number, which is kind of like your physiological limit or cognitive limit of people you can actually have a personal relationship with. So this kind of, like, aspect that there is a limiting factor because, like, people need to trust each other. So that's why I think we're not seeing kind of this. Like, we're seeing very relevant orgs, but we're not seeing massive orgs. Right. You're not seeing valves that have, like, 30,000 people working on it day and night. Right. And I think it's kind of related to the trust level. And I think that's because a lot of, even though daos are supposed to be decentralized, in reality they're very trust basis. Right. So I think there needs to be essentially still an emergence of better tooling that fit with the culture within the DAO. So people kind of don't rely only just purely on trust. And I think trust is always key in human relationships. Like, I don't want to live in a world where I don't relate to people. Maybe there's some other people, but at least my personal. So I think we still need to have better tooling. And there's places like, there's tools like e work, but I think do a really good job for this. But I still have that limitation. From the way I see it, there's always going to be, you know, when there's, like, incentives, there's going to be people that contend by third part of the roof to get the incentives and then jump off. And I think I foresee that continuing. And I think there should be. There's still a lot of things that can be done on chain that require protocols that are decentralized and that needs some sort of, like, human intervention, and therefore you need a DAO. So I think that will continue to grow. I don't foresee a world where there's a million dials, to be honest. There's going to be more. And I think the ones that will remain here, like, probably we are not going to see like voting systems where it's like everyone needs to vote on everything. That makes no sense. Why? Because people have expertise. Because there's finite amount of time. Because there's status that needs to be shared amongst different agents for them to understand what's going on. And the bigger that number, that communication cost grows exponentially. So I don't think one vote for everything makes sense. So I think there's a lot of good companies creating now delegation systems. I think delegates are working to a certain degree. I still think that the incentives on the delegates needs to be improved. Because whether you vote or you don't vote, it doesn't seem to matter. Right. There's some sort of voting. People get delegated and then I. They don't participate, they don't vote, they don't grow in their expertise. And, you know, there's no negative incentives for the delegate and there's also no positive reinforcement. Right. Because they can get paid due to securities laws and things like that. So, you know, we've been following what Uniswap has been doing with unistake, which is very interesting, of essentially creating a staking mechanism where once you stake, you will get a percentage of the fees from IR's. I mean, this still hasn't been fully approved, but it's already designed. And when you're staked, you essentially forced to either take the vote for yourself. So the voting power you keep, it will be delegated. And the people that are being delegated to our daily pay. So I think that's a very exciting concept. I think it's borrowing away a little bit from synthetics. I think they put them in the white paper, too. And I think with the whole restaking narrative of Eigen layer and all of this. But also, I think people will be in that mindset. So, yeah, I think that could potentially be a change. Jose, I don't know if you want to add to that. I agree with you, but I think from my end, I will bet more on the annual innovation on different governance structures. I mean, you can see, like, the best example of that is optimism. Dao, right? But you know, where the first one, to really create two different separate, like structures within the DAO, one, like the citizen's house, it was more just very well known people within the community having some voting power. And on the other side, like the token holders that they were delegating their token to another set of delegates. And between those two chambers that were deciding different aspects of how the governance and how everything is going to be evolving within the DAO, I think that's one of the models that was emerging and that is going to be. Like. A base for new innovations and having different ways to. Just people voting or delegating their tokens or for certain actions. Yeah, I think you're right. I think we're going to see new models or structures of how daos operate. Yeah. Because I've even seen a couple where it's like very similar. I think it's kind of what you were saying about the synthetix one or the uniswap one, where it's like you can delegate, like the delegation one seems to work, you know, when it's like one bow, it's got like democracy, like the us government kind of. It's like the House of Reps and the Senate. Like, it's so funny to see like all these different models popping up of like how to operate. Yeah. And they're going to need the infrastructure, like you said. So hopefully you guys will be kind of in the middle of all that, which will be great. Yeah, I mean, as we said, we try to just kind of see where things are moving and we try to be in touch with the best tools out there that are doing things in composable ways and just incorporate them into our experience and keep them interoperable. Right. Because I think it's so complex. Organizing humans is really complex. So I think the only way we're going to be able to achieve it is like if people kind of feed that impulsible tools and then you got aggregators, and I see we're not going to be the only one doing that. So definitely. Let'S take a quick break. I hope you're enjoying this episode. This episode was made possible with the support of my premium subscribers. Seattle Dog Mike Lynels, Ko Og McCress, Johan Weekend topos lose a new subscriber as well as the f one address that ends in two. A 94. Thanks again for your support. If you'd like to receive exclusive drops access to token gated content, make sure to subscribe to my hyper sub. I'll put a link below. All right, let's get back to it. I guess before you answer this question, how big is your guys team right now? We're ten people. Ten people. Okay. And you guys are both still kind of like coding for the most part, or also more than I. I still. I still want quite a bit and then I. I'm kind of the quick and dirty guy. It's like, here, she's a concept, and then it's always like, oh, shit. Oh, guys. Yeah. That'S awesome. But, yeah, you know. Yeah, I think in this day and age, if you don't code a little bit yourself, it's kind of hard to keep tracks about ceremonies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was kind of my question is, like, how do you, you know, it's changing so quickly right now. How are you guys kind of keeping your pulse on all these changes and, like, what some people want or discussing, like, to just go to conferences or just talking with a lot of people. I think it's a mix of a little bit of everything. You have to be, of course, like, within conference, like getting the alpha from what the users want, where, like, things are going, but also very active within new social networks as forecaster, like all the crypto, Twitter, when you can see the trends and just how to. How to jump on it, where is the opportunity to. To grab more users and even more ration more, use more utility to the community? Yeah, but they're fine. Still, conferences are key. It's still kind of like, kind of going back to the Dunbar law. It's still very much like that. Like, people are the people they know, and conferences is the best way to meet in person. Yeah, I know what you mean. I've debated kind of starting my own, though, as well, sometimes, and I thought about it, like, long and hard. I was like, I think I would cap it to, like, 100 people because that's, like, the number I feel comfortable with. You know, like anything more than that. I feel like it would get to too much, like, in my head to, you know, to know everybody, to, like you said, trust people and stuff like that, so. Yeah, but that's, like, theoretically, like, if we can figure out ways to kind of, maybe create more kind of subgroups, and this kind of goes back into the module that we've been working on and that we just submitted a safe proposal and got approved about creating hierarchical structures. Right. That's when you start relying on the technology, so you don't need to trust people and start adding bad aspect, then the scaling of your or your dao can significantly increase, if that's what we want to do. Yeah, no, that makes sense. Yeah. Because I was even thinking about it where hypothetically, you could even have, let's say, 50 or 100 is the number you feel comfortable. You could just have, like 50 or 100 in, you know, like, in the US and then another 5000 in Europe and then there's like a roll up between, you know, both of those groups. So it's like the same, I guess they're like two different doubts at that stage, but you know, like they could kind of roll up into one common cause. It's just they're their own small little group. You're your own little small group. You know, it's kind of like the us office and the Europe office. Kind of like, that's how I think about it. Um, and then somehow we can consolidate the requirements from both and move forward, hopefully. Yeah, or something that, I mean we've been discussing this with um, hos and some other colleagues, uh, like just essentially getting more sort of like departments where there's like a committee that has some sort of special permission perhaps in the shape of an NFT that get elected by the delegates or the actual stakeholders. And this community groups kind of are experts in engineering or experts in marketing or experts in dev relationships or, and that based on that kind of fund them and kind of have this smaller group of people take directive. Right. And then you can start building into those sort of structures. Um, and I don't know, in the last two years I feel like the narrative regarding DAos has been less political, which I really liked because before it was everything flat, like even us, like creating a primitive for groups, uh, that is just our just opinion, just completely necessary. Uh, we would say hierarchical, and then everyone would jump on us regardless of what it was. But there's like a sort of like, like. Yeah, it's just very political in that sense where it should be more about like a look at the features. Like with access information we can delimit. You cannot trust everyone the same, the moment they get, you can get everyone an equal chance. Flip. Like the closer you get to bigger numbers, there should be essentially a trajectory that maybe the trajectory is not limited only within the dao or that common cause, but like maybe uh, that person has a trajectory and other daos has certain level of trust within the, the what between. Yeah, but I think then with on chain structures you can start to do those sort of things. So you're not limited by this dumbar, uh, number or limitation. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yep. Yeah, I like that you're also thinking about it from like the, the psychology behind it as well. You know. Um, it's like. Yeah, yeah. You know, because like that it's not even like uh, it's not a technical limitation, you know, like the tech is like, you know, you can make this 30 million people if you wanted to. The whole world could be in a doubt if we really wanted to. But it's like, you know, network state. Of your people as far as Balaji. Yeah, yeah. What are, what are some of the challenges you guys are experiencing right now as like, you know, as a. Well, yeah, you're still a startup, right? Like two years. Yeah. What are some of the challenges you guys are experiencing? And you don't have to shed anything. Like, we got a couple. I think the one thing is essentially the way we monetize. So still not something that to us is uh, super clear. Uh, and we're still kind of looking into ways to do it. Initially it was just like, oh, let's create a SaaS platform. But like, nah, that's not the way to do it. I don't think people want to, people want the, the convenience, but I don't think right now they're willing to share. So then uh, it's potentially kind of the way we maybe surface certain composable apps or even still choose whatever composable app you want that there might be something give us more of a kickback fee for bringing volume. And for that volume maybe we can prioritize them in the UI. So the default is this specific one that gives us a good fee. Obviously that is secure, that we trust and all of this. So that's, that's essentially a problem that we have. The other thing is just kind of getting trust from the community takes a while. It's one of the main reasons why we did the safe proposal for our module. And that's because like it's essentially an instant once you get approved in the proposal, it's like a stamp of approval. Right. And our module itself also can tell you super weakly about this, but it's essentially establishing like hooks within the save that change a bit the default behavior. So the security for us there is super paramount. And also kind of people need to trust us and it's completely logical for them to trust us, but we still need to have mechanisms where, let's say us as third party developers can create modules where there's some sort of process where those modules get credibility without risking money unnecessarily. And I think those processes are still not very established to the standards created by the community and adopted. Adopted by the community, which is still something that we don't have. Yes, you have the audits, but like, yeah, audits. There's a spectrum of quality on the audits and I. It's kind of hard to know how thorough they were. Dan, do you have the credibility of the. Also the auditing firms, which kind of. There's some volatility to that quality because this human is doing the work. So it could be that maybe their rockstar guy or girl was on a vacation, and then he didn't catch the last couple mistakes he usually catches. Or she. Um. Yeah. So I think that those kind of getting credibility, um, monetizing could also be. It's a social problem without having to have tokens and things like that. Yeah, I know what you mean. Monetization is always. Have you thought about doing, like. I'm sure you have, but, like, I don't know, like a small fee, like a percentage fee, like, for a SaaS? Yeah, maybe not like a SaaS, but more like, you know, kind of how, like, I don't know how it would work. But one way that we were thinking it was more on the. On all the apps that we were integrating, a couple of those they're already integrating with, like, referral piece of, like, sabrio parslab, for example. So if you bring them volume through our experience, you get some percentage of the fee. So that's one of the ways that we can grab some income. Yeah, it's kind of almost like in a link. Almost exactly at that point. Yeah, exactly that. And even safe right now is we're working with them with the save task points program, when everyone who is Kraken saved through our experience are going to be rewarded by save points. And we got. Then we got a calculated id within the slack protocol. Awesome. Yeah, that's awesome. I think you guys might have to hop soon, and I have just two more, if that's okay with you guys. No,

no, horse, of course. I'm at 07: 56:19

00 p.m. you got us. Okay. All right. So I know you brought this up like, it was kind of one of my questions, like, what are the risks right now? And it sounds like trust is also kind of like, not that there's anything wrong with you guys. You know, it's just like company, you know, like, getting your name out there and then building that establishment. And you, like you said, you know, you have the audit. So, like, the audits, one. One thing that helps people sometimes feel comfortable also if safe, you know, like you said, gave you, like a. You know, even if it's like a marketing digital stamp of approval, like, that also makes people feel. Yeah. The proposal is essentially money for a fountain protocol, which probably you heard of it, hats finance, which is super interesting work. Essentially. They, you know, they give the rewards and different white hackers participate to then get the bounty and fine blocks and things like that. So I think that's a super good. And then it was also cool because then, like, for us, it's just kind of like, I don't know what's the best analogy for this, but we felt like we were, you know, we were building the module. We go to this group, so be like, guys, we have this for this. Like, this is super necessary. And they'll be like, yes, this is very important, but we have a thousand other things to do right now. So we kind of fell between were very important but not urgent type of classification. So we also wanted to see how much people actually agree with us if this is truly necessary. Because for Jose and I, it's kind of like, you know, scoping permissions and kind of limiting liability in terms of, like, what happens to the money. It's like kind of key. And most owls don't have this. It's kind of the owners of the multi six. Like, you have couple owners spread around all the multi sigs. And if something happens to the private key of those owners, it's essentially okay, you maybe lost one signer out of the three, or maybe it was one of two. And now those funds are lost. Right. Yeah. So that's problematic. And, yeah, so for us, kind of like that, the limitation of rights and permissions is key. So, yeah, that's why you also wanted to see what the community thought about it. And, yeah, we got a lot of great people vote for us. Support from groups like Snapshot, Carque, Nexus, mutual. So, yeah, mostly skill. So that was, that was super cool to see. It was kind of, you know how. Yes, this is something important. We all agree, and we're voting with Armani, which is, at the end of the day, real. Yeah. And then it's also a great way for people to know about what we're doing and kind of spreading the module. Right. And gain trust. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Yep. As unfortunately. I know what you mean. Sometimes it's like it's urgent, but we have other fires that we need to, like, tackle or something, so it's. That sucks. Yeah. Humans. Um, let's see, what else do I have here? Um, yeah, I wanted to talk to you a little bit more about the. So I know you guys recently deployed. Um, you guys worked with frames recently. Uh, off on forecaster. Can you talk to me a little bit about that one? Uh, you know, mostly like, I think it was to create a safe within dgen, uh, Djenan chain, right? Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah, so we saw there was essentially uh, the safe contracts were not in the decent chain. Uh, so uh, Hossein, one of our senior engineers, spent a good amount of energy trying to figure out uh, how to deploy. Well, deploying the contracts wasn't that bad. It was more the RPC nodes or the web three provider nodes, uh, with uh, tracing enabling. So we, because on a safe like for you, for a change, to support safe, you need to have essentially infrastructure that is indexing the transactions coming from the safe. So you need something to kind of say, okay, here's a new safe deployed, I'm going to track that. And then there's new transactions coming from. That answer is that that transaction is essentially a transaction within a transaction. So you need to pull that transaction out and kind of understand what it is, calculate USD balances, all this kind of stuff. And also for why a queue where essentially the multi Sig process can happen. Because let's say we're all in a multi sig and we have a threshold of two out of three. Let's say if you and Jose sign, someone's going to sign first. And that signature of the payload of the transaction needs to be stored on an off chain component, which is the infrastructure. So we have to do all of that for Degen chain. And then we were thinking about like oh, how do we get depot to test this? And we decided to essentially build a frame that allows you to create safe in a bunch of different chains just with a thick button. Honestly it was more of like, let's see how many people we get with this. And honestly the acquisition speak was super cool to see if you go lobbit since he's got a lot of attention. And honestly it's great. Just frames is uh, it's um. I like the way they solve it. At the, at the beginning I was a bit kind of like the developer experience was kind of not great because there weren't frameworks for it, right? So I had to like before we saw frogs, which is why paradigm, and that's a k that they have, we were actually kind of uh, sending HTML tool server for it, to render it and then turn it into SVG. So then put it into the meta tags of the frame. Because you cannot re render HTML, you're rendering, sorry, what's an HTML is jpegs. You can either render text as buttons or you can render images, I say. And then you kind of have hooks. So when people click on the buttons you can pass that payload into the server and all that. But it's quite limited. Well, yeah, we were super happy people used this because at the end of the day, this way, you'd be. Right. Those software. So people use it, and that's the, that's the fun thing about it. Yeah. Yeah. And it seems like more, like, it seems like every day there's more apps or tools creating on top of DJ and chain two and. And even, you know. Yeah. Like, which is great. You know, like, I'm still trying to figure out, uh, layer threes and all that. Like, it feels like I make a, like, a huge dial with, like, like, with, like, things around it. I don't know how to explain it. Right. It's just kind of like forecaster is the center, and then you interact with people, and you get content and you try things out, and then you also kind of socialize, and then you see something or someone shares and try this out, and it's so the friction is so low that you're just willing to try more things out. So I think, yeah, it's super, super powerful. And for people that are looking for users such as us, like, it's great to acquire users. Yeah. Also, I will add something there. Go ahead. That, I mean, for me, it's very interesting how to all get bootstrapped when they, they airdropped. Right. Like the djinn token to kind of this small community within forecaster. You can give tips, and then you get more tokens, and then from that, you start like this l three with the native token. It's like the degen chain. So I think that makes everyone, like, much more, has much more will to, like, try build things, innovate things, because you kind of, the incentive was already, was already there for everyone. So it's just, okay, let's keep using it and let's keep building and. Yeah, that's how everything just popping up. Yeah. I'm just wondering when it's gonna go outside of just us agents. Right. And it's gonna kind of open up to a wider audience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, even Farcaster feels a little bit like that, too. So I feel like, you know, whenever, I mean, I guess this was like a conversation recently on Barcaster, but it was like, whenever Farcaster expands past us, like, the people that are in it right now or even crypto Twitter, then that maybe that's when Degen chain also expands past crypto users as well, or it becomes kind of like an oasis for crypto users. All the crypto Djenny apps are in there. And then Farcaster becomes more a Twitter where it's open. It's not just crypto or dev talks or whatever. It's like, you know, people are talking about cooking and legos or whatever, you know, like non crypto stuff. So, yeah, it's a great way to kind of, like, see what other crypto people are outside of just kind of shit posting on Twitter. Yeah, yeah. Because I feel like it's a bit more. You can find more niche things, and it's kind of cool because then you'd be kind of just find things in common that before would just like, the only intersection of hobbies was like, ah, you both impregnate. I was like, ah, he was reading that book, too, because it's just smaller. It's in Twitter right now. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah. Have you guys thought about coming on some. Some talks over here in the US? I think when I saw, like, all the talks that you guys were doing, it was mostly in Europe. Mostly in Europe, yeah, mostly in Europe. Yeah, yeah. We missed December, which we generally like to go. I think that's a great one. Consensus. I don't know. Feels very lawyer banker type, but I haven't been in years. Maybe it's changed. Maybe. Do you have any recommendations of what conferences we should be heading off in the US? I'll let you know. I actually, this year was the first year I started going to. To more in real life events. I had a kid recently, so that kind of took time, so. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So now I finally went this year, I plan on going. If there's something in Latin America, you know, I'm down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. For sure. There's something in Argentina or something that people. Seems to be doing quite a bit of things, so it's good. There's Eve Guatemala, too, which is great. Is there really? Yeah. I see for water. There's a group all at you so straight. I have no clue, man. That's awesome. This is in East Bolivia. Even though Kreptos completely illegal. Boy, here. Yeah, yeah. We got to be a little bit more like El Salvador and at least accept bitcoin at this stage. I send money to my dad. My dad lives in Guatemala and I send money to him and it's, oh, my God, dude, it's so much money. And I'm like, I wish I could just send him USDC. And he knew how to do it on that side. I think there's bitcoin. At least. There's bitcoin ATM's. I don't know if they have support. It'll be very weird for them not to have support for USCC at this point, but who knows? Yeah. Especially with base that's so cheap. With base is super cheap. My dad's also, like, lives in a ranch. Nice. Where we're at, so I don't know. Yeah. Huh. What? We're at. Near Shella. Yeah. My family's from. We're from Shella. Yeah. Nice. Since we have Jose here, it's like the city. Yeah, it's. Yeah. You don't have to worry. It's. It's actually not that small of a city. It's like a million people. Yeah. Is it really? Yeah, it's a small city. Wow. Oh, damn. Where is it? I have to look where that is, actually. Where is that? Is that closer to, like, Italy or, you know, Zurich? No. Oh, you're in. Oh, you're in Zurich. We're in zoo, but Stephen is smaller. Okay. Okay. That's. That's why I've heard of zoo. 80,000 people. 50,000 people. Uh, yeah. That's, like, the town I grew up in here in the. In the Bay area. My town in the Bay area that I grew up in is, like, 100,000 on a heavy. Nice. I say. Let'S see. All right, let's see what else I have. Yeah. The degen chain. Yeah. A lot of activity there. So I'm glad that you guys are able to tap into that a little bit. Are people able to go, like, are you guys still, like, am I able to go into pubmed and create my own wallet management if I have some? Yeah. Right now, we're. We've been, um, the tasks, we're mostly relying on the safe experience to build safe. So to create the safes, deploy the saves. Uh, and now we're putting that into our own experience. So right now, if you're in beach and chain, you got to use our frame to deploy your safe, and then you can vote it and forth. You'll see it in dashboard. Release with the new feature to create safe is coming very soon. So I want to just create that from the main experience. Okay. Yeah, that was my question. Yeah. Like, if. If people should create their saves first and then go to your platform and then kind of aggregate them, or it sounds like they're. They'll be able to negatively do it in your app, uh, which is great. And the other thing that is, uh, important to understand is that we are. Some people call us a fork, but not a fork of safe. We support safe. So whatever you do with Vanguard will be supported, uh, within the safe ui, whenever safe decides to, uh, support the contain chain. Uh, so that's something really, really important that we are using the official safe contracts and were built from that, essentially the state protocol. Yeah. So I think that's a great, yeah, I think that's a great call out. Cause, yeah, we don't want people thinking, you know, that their thing isn't supported in the safe app or whatever, you know. So that's, that's great, you know, and that's like the whole ethos of, you know, crypto. Like, you're able to, you know, what you built here, you can import it somewhere else, or if there is another aggregator or competitor, you'd be hypothetically able to move to that as well. All right, so I have one more. Other than before we get to this part, you guys are going to laugh. So I used to ask everybody in the podcast, because I used to call this beachos because it was supposed to be like bite size. It's supposed to be like bite sized news and information. So one of the questions from when I used to be called that is, what is your favorite snack? And I've asked everyone that, I've done an interview with this, so now I'm asking both of you. Snack. Yeah. So, like, not a meal. Although sometimes it can't get to a meal a little bit, you know, like think tapas. What's your favorite snack? Snack. I mean, I will go. You want to laugh? It's more like greek yogurt with some protein and some fruits there. All right. The healthy choice. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I love m and Ms. Well, Eminem site. Yeah. Great. Sack. M and M's. There you go. All right. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Every time I went to you a coffee. Is the snacks this fast. Eminems were always there, not knock Draper. That's dangerous. Yeah, I know what you mean. That's hilarious. All right, well, thank you for that. Let's see. Thanks again for jumping on. Really appreciate it in terms of explaining what Palmera is and how to use it. And I'm hoping more people, especially with the price of Djen, we're not going to talk about the speculation of that, but some people have a lot of DJ and some of it is shared. So hopefully people are being smart about managing their funds as a whole, not just with Djen, but Ethan base, anything, really. So if you have anything high value, always have a multisig. And if you want, you know, to manage all those wallets, hopefully they'll consider using Palmetto as well, especially if they're running an on chain company. So, yeah, where would you like people to, you know, where can they find you guys? So either individually or, you know, at, you know, Palmetto and forecast. Yeah, give us some people almerim you're keeping and you can find me as Andy P. Just like you see on the screen here. I'm saying for me, Joseph. All right, welcome back. This week's cast off, and for those not familiar, is where, cast off is where I want to hear from you, the audience. So this week's episode, cast off question is, what do you, what's your feeling on Daos right now? Where do you think we are? Do you feel like they're still useful? Is there a place for them? How are you feeling about the tools around Daos? Just like Palmyra, there's other tools as well as what we discussed in the episode. Yeah. So thanks again. If you've made it to the entire episode, want to thank you kind of from the bottom of my heart. If you're listening to this episode on another platform other than pods, make sure to go collect his episodes on pods media. If you're on pods, make sure to subscribe from your favorite app. You'll be notified when episodes drop. I hope you enjoyed this new episode. Please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening to this. Feel free to share this with anyone that you think might be interested in the topic. Also, feel free to reach out to me and let me know, you know, which people or topics you'd like me to discuss in the future. You can get in touch with me via the show notes. There's a text me feature, sms rates apply. You can reach out to me on social media if that's a little bit easier. All right, see you guys next time, don't you think? See? No. See.