Bcard

We’ll be diving deep into how bcard is making waves by redirecting interchange revenue from debit card transactions to causes and communities people care about. It's an incredible way to bridge traditional finance with decentralized, community-driven missions.

00:00 Gramajo podcast discusses NFTs and financial innovation.
04:25 DAOs infrastructure improving for better engagement.
08:51 Financial players compete with values-driven rewards.
11:36 Discussion about identity and multiple communities interest.
14:16 Discussing custom card images and community support.
16:44 Navigating US government and finance: a huge win.
21:29 Pre-launch limitations. Gap in user knowledge identified.
23:49 Idea for coffee dao to save coffee.
26:50 Building on Farcaster presents challenges for developers.
29:28 Crypto native market small, facing competition.

Music & Sounds By: Lakey Inspired
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CastOff/Episode Discussion, here.

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Transcript

0:00

For me, web three, is that it's really this new idea that individuals can contribute, be part of a brand. You're not just buying Nike's products, you are part of Nike. All of a sudden, that's really powerful. GMGM welcome back to another episode of behind the screen with Gramaho, the podcast where we unravel stories, insights, secrets of top tier artists, avid collectors, and innovative builders shaping the digital frontier, better known as Web three. I'm your host, Gramaho, an avid crypto enthusiast that's been in the space since 2012, joined the NFT space in 2021, never left. Kind of just been here the whole time. Yeah. So this week's episode is a really interesting episode to me. It kind of came to my attention after I saw the announcement by the Noggles team, which is a coin from the Nouns Dao or PFP project. Essentially, Bcard and Lynx, they're working on trying to bring traditional finance to the web three world. So anytime that you go and use this card, this debit card, and this is like the initial offering, you can basically get cash back or percentage points back on a certain coin. This has been done before. So, like the Coinbase card, you can choose which crypto you want. Same with Gemini. It's like a credit card as well. The biggest or most popular one that I'm familiar with is fold. They do bitcoin, and this one is really cool because it just basically, you can choose the community that you want to support. And so it caught my attention, and I definitely wanted to speak with Lynx. He's a very busy person, so it's a quick episode, so I hope you enjoy it, and. Yeah, let's dive in. First of all, I want to say, I think my. Since I've read what you guys are doing with the nouns group, my brain's been spinning, like, so fast, man. It's insane. And then I listened to your guys's, your weekly meeting, and I was like, just, man, I'm beyond stoked to be talking to you, just so you know, like, the idea and the possibilities of what you could do and what you're after is, is it's big, man, but it's. I feel like it could. It could make a huge change on meme coins or coins or however you want to describe it. You know, like, it brings that level of utility, that it just brings it full circle and it makes that flywheel just go nuts. So, anyways, yeah, so I wanted to start off with, we have you links from the bcard team, if you wanted to just give me a quick intro about you before we jump into bcart as a whole. Sure. Absolutely. So I come from technology. I'm a software engineer. But after I got into industry, I realized that as much as I love technology, I really love more what technology can do for people. And so that kind of drives what I do. So I've worked as a product manager. I've worked as a startup executive. I worked in the startup space for a while. And what really drew me to Daos was this idea that you can kind of play with ownership a little bit more. It's really rigid in this traditional financial system. So join six daos. Bankos. Dao was the one where I called my home, and that's where bcard came from. I iterated on a bunch of different product ideas. When I saw the audience, I was just like, I want to build a product for this group. And finally hit on bcard, and it started. Every single person who I talked to at bank of style was like, yeah, this is amazing. Let's get it to work. And so that's what really brought me to bcard, and that's where I'm coming from. Yeah, awesome. And how long have you been in the crypto space as a whole and all that? So I first got into it in, I think, 2013, and I was, like, just writing arbitrage bots for, like, dogecoin and bitcoin and that kind of stuff. And it just was too far away for the user, for me. So I kind of, like, I was like, okay, this is cool. It's a little far away from where I want to be. And then 2021, I got back into it when I heard about daos. And so that's what really brought me back to the script space. Oh, we can play with ownership in an organization. That's really cool. Yeah, no, I totally get that. Yeah. And it seems like daos as a whole are also going through kind of like, I was telling a couple people, I was like, I think we're gonna see, like, obviously they were really big during the last bull run, but I would say that, like, the infrastructure wasn't really there. So, for example, like, if you wanted to, you know, vote or something, you had to, like, message people. Like, so coordination was really difficult, which then, you know, if you don't have coordination, then activity or engagement is low, and then voting is low, and then, you know, it's just like a neg, a negative, like, spiral towards that. But, like, with farcaster, it seems like. And some of the other stuff, too, like hats, protocol, and splits and a couple other things. Like the on chain operations of a dow is like, it's getting fun. And I'm like, damn. Like, I've even debated on top of, like, building a coin, too. I was like, man, I should build a dao behind a coin, too. I mean, it's interesting, right? Because a lot of these, like, you could, you could think of higher as a Dao. You could think of, like, a lot of some of these other, these other groups as daos, too, and they're not being called daos. And I actually, I actually don't like that term dao, to be honest. So just an on chain community is a wonderful thing. And the more that we have them, I think, like, oh, right now we have communities and mainly have to kind of be in real life now we can be purpose driven, purpose aligned and moving together at a global scale. That's a, that's pretty big unlock. Yeah, no, I agree. And even Vitalik, just recently, I was just reading, you know, he, he kind of made a comment about, you know, like, the Iggy azalea, like, meme coin, celebrity meme coin thing, and he was kind of like, you know, have more purpose driven coins for communities like that. That's like the real unlock. And I think he mentioned specifically arts, like digital art. So, yeah, it, it seems like everything's kind of going there. So, yeah, let's talk about bcard. So where, with all that kind of, where does bcard, what is bcard, and where does it sit in all this ecosystem and, like, what is it trying to do? So when I was at bank of style, I was trying to create a way for crypto to be felt in the real world. And so that's the stated purpose of bcard, is to bridge a gap between web three and the real world. When I got into the crypto space, I just, especially in this kind of Dao model, being part of startups, you get this feeling. You get this feeling, like, I'm working together with people. We all have this same kind of purpose aligned vision, and that is a feeling you get in startups. That is a feeling you get in daos. And that's a feeling that I want, honestly, everyone in the world to feel. So that's what I was trying to do with bcard, and ultimately, that's what we're aiming to do in the long run. In the short run, it's all about empowering communities. If we can empower some of these communities, Daos, whatever you want to call them, by, like, if we can empower them. If we can give them more resources, then they will do the work to, to make themselves felt in real life. Right. And I think that that is the big difference between some of these online communities that we've had in the past. And now in an online community, especially in the crypto space, which is very, like, technical, it's very difficult. You have to do a lot of research. If instead you join a community, there's lots of people who are there willing to help you. And so that's really what we wanted to do with bcard in terms of empowering communities. You know, our first product is going to be this b card where it's essentially redirecting interchange revenue. So every time you use a debit card, you're paying one to 2% that goes to a bank. What if instead that went to your cause of choice? What if instead that went to your community of choice? And so that was our, that's our first product we're now out in, in the States. It was a, it was a big battle to get there. Took us two years to do it. And now we've got our public beta out there. And over the next couple months, we're really going to be drilling down on how can we empower communities, because we really believe that communities are the way forward. Yeah, yeah. No, yeah. And I had a feeling that the energy, it was the interchange fee. Is that kind of how you guys were going to keep it around? Obviously, like, you know, like if you're a more larger, established brand, you want to make sure that the, you know, if you're going with a b card that it's going to stick around. And you have a business model that makes it so you stick around, you know, and that one makes the most sense to me. Like, it's already an existing model that, you know, chase and big financial institutions use. So why not, you know, have it where it, it's like you said that your cause of, you know, your choice of a cause or community, you know, instead versus chase. I think it's interesting, right? Because we have these, you know, these big entrenched players like chase and kind of upstarts like crypto.com, they have their own card. What makes us different from them is that it's really all about aligning your actions with your values, right? When you're using a chase card, you're doing it, you know, to get, probably because you already have a chase account and you're using it for that. Using crypto.com, comma, you're typically using it based on a research, because of the cash back, because of those individual rewards. Right now, they do a lot of things with those. They're not making money on interchange. Right. Like, the reason why crypto.com gives you rewards is so that you will, you will use their card and that you will stake Chronos, you will stake on their Kronos network. Right? So they're really doing it as a loss leader to bootstrap their network. On the other hand, what we're doing is really, we're using interchange fees as our sole source of revenue. And the only reason we can do that is because our costs are far, far, far less than someone like a chase or someone like a crypto.com dot. We are a community that's executing a community card. We can do things that these other groups can't do at all. That's why we're really leaning on this idea of communities. Yeah, no, I love that. It's a natural fit, I would say, know, like really, like, you know, it's funny because, like, even if we switch, you know, communities with the word brand, you know, like, you know, nobody's like, oh, you know, I have my, I think, is it Wells Fargo bank of America for like, Alaska? You know, like the Alaska credit card? Nobody's like, ah, yeah, I got my bank of America or Wells Fargo credit card. Like, it's like, no, it's the Alaska card or it's like the Delta card, even though it's an Amex underneath. Like, the technology has always been, you know, obviously they love to put their logo like Visa and stuff like that, like in places where they need to, and it's fine, you know, but like, nobody's like, ah, yeah, like team visa ultimate signature level, you know, like, it's like, I just gotta chase Sapphire prefer, you know, like, that's what it is. You know, it's like the ultimate rewards program or the, you know, the Hyatt program. It's not like that's also chase, you know, like, so it's funny. Like it's a, it's a natural for it to go after the. It's funny. It's funny that you put it that way because one of the things that we say quite often is dows are brands, really, that's all they are at this stage. And that's a good thing, right? Like you can actually co create with a dow where you can't with others, right? Like you're. You're more willing to rep your nouns card, right, than you are willing to rep your chase card, you're more willing to wear, like, a t shirt that says higher, right, than you are to wear a t shirt that says Wells Fargo. And I think that that, for me, web three, is that it's really this new idea that that individuals can contribute, be part of a brand. You're not just buying Nike's products. You are part of Nike. All of a sudden. That's really powerful. Yeah, like, lulu, you know, it's like, you know, it's athletic workout stuff, but, you know, it's actually like a lifestyle, like, that goes with it. You know, like, yeah, no, I love that. One thing I did wanted to ask you, though, that kind of just came into my mind a little bit was, you know, obviously not all of us are part of one community or identify with one community. Like, identity is like one of those things that, you know, like, I'm a dad and I'm in tech and, you know, I'm in crypto and I buy nfts. You know, like, those are all different facets of my identity. Obviously more of a long term issue. But, like, have you thought about, you know, how do I, am I, am I gonna sign up for, like, five debit cards if, like, if I'm announce and in bankless and in, like, let's say hire does one, and then in trees, you know, like, do I have four? Or, or do I have one card where I get to choose, like, the imagery? But then, you know, on the back end, you know, I could be like, this month I'm gonna switch my rewards from trees to, you know, nouns. So it's exactly as you say. Right now, we have very limited capacity to do some things. We have two different kinds of programs. One is these custom plastic. So, like, for the nouns card, you get custom plastic, but you can switch your community to whatever you want at any time. So you could even say like, hey, I'm going to get nogs for this coffee, and I'm going to be getting some other token because I'm going to pay my rent and I'm going to get some other token with this other thing. You can, you can actually change it by transaction if you want through our app. Oh, wow. Yeah, eventually we'll get to a point. And the reason we can't do it right now, I mean, there's lots of technical reasons and compliance reasons, but eventually we'll get to the point where you'll actually be able to say, like, okay, I want to give like, 20% to, I want to get like, 20% of nogs. I want to get, like, 20% of purple. I want to get, like, smart contracted almost eventually. Eventually. Yeah. That's exciting, man. Yeah. Yeah. Obviously, like, you know, everything here is for all my listeners and stuff, it's all forward looking statements. We're not holding, you know, links or anyone from the bee card team to deliver something before the end of the year or anything of that nature. You know, it's, it. I think that's awesome. I think that, like, makes it so it's more in line with, with your usage. You know, like, you support multiple things. You know, all of us are in multiple communities, and we're all passionate about multiple communities. Obviously, you're not. I mean, I'm sure there's gonna be some limit where you're not gonna be like, oh, here's 100 communities and I'm giving 1% from all over. I don't know. Who knows? You know? Like, logistically, that might be hard, but. Like, someone will do that. Someone will do that for sure. So, like, you know, we'll, we'll cross that bridge when we get to that. But that's awesome that you guys are thinking about it in that way because, you know, I obviously, like, you know, it's so funny because, like, people, I forget, was it like, capital one or discover you were able to choose, like, your own image to put on your own card and that became, like, a thing. Like, everyone was like, pick choosing their own picture. So, like, obviously people care about the custom card, but on the back end, you know, like, I would love to, you know, be like, here are my five communities that I care about, and I'll take 20% on supporting all of them, you know, across the board. 20%. So that's great. Another thing I wanted to kind of talk to you. So I was a big, heavy user of fold, and you kind of brought it up a little bit with the bill pay. Is that something that's already feasible now? So, like, if, let's just say, you know, hire was in there and that's the community I'm choosing for the token for, you know, am I able to load up my debit card and pay my bills through there and then, you know, receive, you know, like, the percentage from that, like, kind of, like, fold. So I don't know. Just. So bill pay has a very specific term in the traditional financial system in that it's one of the ways to get money from your account to another account. Right? So it's like Ach bill pay wire. So right now, in our accounts, the only way to, like, egress funds to get funds out of it is through the card. So if you're able to pay your bills using your card, then you can do it right now out of the box. In the future, we would like to add these kinds of things in the app itself. Right. Like, so ultimately, you know, the plan right now to empower communities is to allow you to redirect your interchange fee. One of many financial fees that you're paying, that you're actually forced to pay. But in the future, we'd like to have more of these fees that you already have to pay because of legislation, because visa and all these other networks have very good lobbyists. So you're actually paying this interchange fee even when you're paying with cash. Right. The merchant just pockets it at that point. But if we can create more ways, more revenue streams to allow our users and our communities to get empowered through these. Through these fees, that's kind of our long game. That's what we're aiming at in the long run, ultimately to become a provider for people who want to spend money aligned with their values. So we'll see. Right. But that's going to be the long run. We will eventually get Bill pay, hopefully, knock on wood. But for now, if you can pay with your debit card, then you can start doing that already. Yeah. And that in itself already, like you said, that's a, that's a huge win. You know, like the US, the us government and the financial securities and like, all that is not an easy place to navigate. So the fact that you already got to this stage and I can go buy a coffee with this card and, you know, get knobs, like, I would say, you know, that in itself is already worth an applause. You know, everything else after this, I would say is like the cherry on top. You know, it's just like another opening up another revenue streamer or really, it's another way to actually just use those funds. That's really what it is. Also. I think, like that, the whole tradfi system, I understand why it exists, how it exists, but I think that right now it's not serving users as well as it could interchange itself. In the states it's 1.5% on average. In Europe it's 0.6%. Right. And so essentially we're being overcharged here and overcharged by law. It's written into our laws. Right. It's unfortunate. And it takes organizations like Bcard to basically say, like, hey, it's your money. We're going to take it from this traditional financial system, which is just using it to pad their bottom lines and put it to places that you actually care about. Right. I think, like that's, we're essentially like feeding from the traditional financial system to bolster these web three communities. Yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah. And even if, like, you know, if it's one and a half percent and 1%, you know, goes to the communities and five, you know, dot five goes to to be card. Like that in itself is already way cheaper than some, like, then traditional finance. Kind of like what you're saying. You know, like we were just talking about like Coinbase. I was talking to the warp shop guys last night about, you know, like Coinbase, commerce. You know, like they take like one or two. I think it's like one or 2%. I forget what the fee is, but, you know, like on a credit card, I get charged like, you know, three, 4% with stripe and then plus the transaction. So, like, you know, they have like convoluted it and it's like high and same with, like, we were talking about fabric. You know, Patreon is like 10% and fabric is five. And the funny thing is, I'm like, I made, I made it. So it was like, cool. Now I have 5%, which now I put into a fun for referrals. So like, you know, it just changes. Like the, you know, 5% is good. You know, it's still cheaper than Patreon. So like, you know, yeah, it's all. Instead of going to this private company, which honestly probably needs it because they have to, like, they have like all of these like kind of overhead expenses, you know, they're running the, the transactions on their site servers and they have to connect to these other things instead of doing that. If you're running it on this like open computer that is Ethereum, you can take that 5% and feed it into your flywheel. And so that, so there's more growth for you as a creator than you can get on something like Patreon. That's exactly it. Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly it. Let's take a quick break. I hope you're enjoying the episode. This episode was made possible with the support of my premium subscribers. Seattle Dog McMinals, ko og lucres, Johan young weekend, and even that one wallet that I still don't know who it belongs to. 757 958 is the ending. Thanks again for making this all possible. If you'd like to receive exclusive drops access to token gated content, make sure to subscribe to my hyper sub. I'll put the link below. Let's get back to it. Also, I heard in your weekly call. Call, and this will be the last kind of on the fold part. But, like, I heard on your weekly call, you know, that you kind of wanted. So, like, people are moving funds in, but they're not like, necessarily spending it as much or getting it out, you know? Have you thought about like, folds? Kind of the big one that I've used for a very long time. I used it for like a, like over two and a half years. But have you guys thought about, like, gamification of, like getting people just to open that just so like they're at least remembering, obviously, like they might not put it in their wallet or maybe they will. I don't know. You know, like, people are weird. You know, some people like to carry only one card and, and then everything else. Apple pay, you know, have you thought about kind of like that? Like some kind of. Absolutely. I mean, you're talking essentially about like how the sausage is made in product development. If you want to see how the sausage is made, go ahead and check out our weekly calls. But essentially we're at the point where we have really the bare minimum of stuff that we needed to launch. That's the minimum viable product. But I wouldn't say it's a minimum lovable product. It's not the product that's going to get people using it over and over and over again. That's the stage that we're at now. We can't do that pre launch. You can only do it when users are using the product. We've already figured out one gap. I talked about it today at our weekly call, which was right before this call, which was, a lot of people don't know that you can add your cards to Apple Pay. All you have to do is do an ACH transfer and you can start using your card immediately. They are waiting for the physical cards to come in the mail. So that's the first gap that we have to fix. But in terms of gamification, the plan is actually, well, with the deal that we have with our card provider, the more transaction volume that we create, the more like the higher percentage of the interchange revenue that we get. Right. So we're getting a very little small percent right now. But if we get to, like, if we get to a million in transaction volume, that multiplies by two. If we get to 2 million, that multiplies by three. Right. And so the gamification, instead of being on an individual level, we will have some individual gamification but we're going to start with the community level. Okay, so nouns is on this card, bank of style is on this card, and origin protocol is, as of Monday, on this card. But we're going to get more communities as we go. But can we start to get, like, start to show people how close we are to these, essentially these boosts? You're getting twice as much interchange instead of what you were getting before by showing the communities in their leaderboards. Oh, nouns is contributing 30% of our total transaction volume, and origin is providing 20% of our total transaction volume. Can we get more people to be interested by showing this, by being transparent? And luckily for us, we can be more transparent than someone like a chase or crypto.com can be because we've built it in this way. We've built it in a way that is really around that idea of transparency. So yes, we're absolutely going to have gamification, but we want to have that gamification more around contributing to a community than just these kinds of individual rewards. And fold app is like, that fold card is pretty interesting. I looked at it when you mentioned it, and it is probably one of the closest competitors we have. But again, it is one of these individual reward competitors. That bitcoin that you're buying isn't helping a community in any way, but tokenomics allows us to actually bolster the community by using the card. So that's, that's what we have to lean on. That's our differentiator. And that's what our gamification is going to be built around as well. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly it. That's kind of what I was thinking. So, like, I was randomly, you'll laugh and don't judge my, my dumb idea, but, like, I was like, oh, what if I built, like, a coffee dao? Because, you know, like, coffee, like, they're talking about, like, it's going to go extinct in, like, you know, 2050 or whatever, and like, we're going to have not, you know, due to global warming or whatever, you know, and, and here at UC Davis, like, down the road from where I am, you know, they're, they got a bunch of university students researching how to, like, make it so coffee is more durable, like as a plant. And, you know, future generations can have that. And I was like, well, this sounds like a dow. Like, let's build a damn dow on this and let's build a coffee coin. And then when you go to a coffee shop, you know, you're basically donating to the cause of, like, making sure coffee stays in the future. Like, that was the first thing that came into my head. I was like. And so the gamification would be like, hey, you know, like, for, you know, from fall, you know, from pumpkin spice latte season, which I don't really, you know, Starbucks. I don't know how people feel about it. Whatever. Like, I was like, hey, you know, like, sometimes you got to tack on your. Your brand to some other brand and, like, get on that rocket ship. And I was like, let's pumpkin spice latte season. Through the end of the year, there's a boost, you know, like, for every purchase you do, you get an extra, you know, dot five or dot two. Have you heard of. Have you heard of grounds dao? So they're like a coffee dao. They're not. They're not contributing to this effort, but they could be, right? Like, essentially, they're like a noun style dao. Like a nounish dao where, like, you could put a proposal in and you can make it go. You can. It's full of coffee lovers. So, like, that's exactly the kind of. Someone already beat me to. Yeah, I'll take a look at those guys after this call. But that's where I was coming from. I was like. And it kind of brought back, like, you know, like, the flywheel, like, now with the. With the interchange, and, you know, it's just making your brand stickier, you know, and it's, like, more in people's faces. It's like they're thinking about it more constantly when they're swiping that card. It's also bridging the. The gap, like you said, from traditional finance to the web three world. So I think that's super awesome. Yeah. And it's totally possible what they're doing, right. Like, they did it in Canada in the 18 hundreds, 19 hundreds for wheat. Right. Like, our entire kind of, like, wheat bread basket in the middle of Canada is. Is the strain of wheat that they. That they developed to be more durable because we have shorter growing seasons, and those growing seasons have, like, higher temperature variances and stuff. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Like, see? Yeah, it's. Yeah. Lots of potential there. Let's see, since I know we're almost at time. Yeah. So I'm sure you've seen the announcement recently from. From the nook team about, like, you know, them closing up shop and moving kind of to work on some other stuff, probably far caster related, I'm guessing, just specifically a client, but I wanted to since you're kind of on the ground level right now with Bcard and you're kind of in the middle of all that, I wanted to know, what are some, some pros and cons of just building on top of Farcaster that you've seen so far? Yeah, I think like building on top of Farcaster, I think that in itself is a nebulous term, because if you're building a client for Farcaster, you're really building right on top of Farcaster. You can't. It's hard for you to go outside of Farcaster at that point. Right. It's, I think in terms of nook themselves, they kind of said that it's going to be really hard for them to compete. I mean, you look at Merkel manufacturer, the people who are making Farcaster, they just closed $150 million round. This other Farcaster client by the creators of Mirror called kiosk, they just closed a $20 million round. If you're building a Farcaster client, is it even worth it for you if you don't have at least a couple million bucks in funding? So I can understand why they packed it in and they actually did get some funding, but I don't think it was at that scale at all. It's probably like a million ish or less. And it wasn't necessarily for a Farcaster client. It could be for anything. And so when we're talking about building on top of Farcaster, I really think you shouldn't be looking at building on top of Farcaster, but building with Farcaster in some ways. Right. Like there is a social graph there that is really interesting. And Merkel manufactory is really, they've stated, and they've done, they've so far done what they've stated. They're aiming to get that crypto native community first. So for anyone building in the crypto space, this is a really good source of early users. Right? Like, it is exactly the kind of users that you want for any, even crypto adjacent product. It's a perfect, it's a perfect place for you to refine your ideas and come up with something that's actually useful. Another thing is that because of that open data, Farcaster has a hub. If you run a hub, you have access to the data. That means that you can feel comfortable building on Farcaster. And they're not going to take away API access like Twitter did or like Facebook did. A lot of people built on top of Facebook or on top of X, and they basically lost their business overnight because those are centralized, like the data centralized, you just don't have access to the data. Yeah. Or embedded too, like a polo. Exactly, exactly. Right. And so I think for people building on Farcaster, you do get additional, let's say, assurances that the data that you're using is still going to be there tomorrow. I think that that's something that can't be understated. And it's true. The scale of Twitter and Facebook is just way, way bigger. But if they can just pull the rug out from under you at any moment, does it really matter? I don't know. Right. Yeah. I think on the con side, one thing that people might get bogged down into is just that the crypto native market is small on a whole. And of that chunk of people, the Farcaster audience is even smaller than that. It's a small audience to try to build a business off of. You cannot, I don't think you can confine yourself to that audience, especially if you're aiming like BCart is aiming to onboard the mass market. We could build something with Barcaster using Farcaster data, but we wouldn't be able to just confine ourselves to that because we wouldn't be able to create a business out of there, at least not one that is actually going to work in the long run. I also think that a con is just, as I said before, if you are building something against all these people with super deep pockets like kiosk or Merkel manufacturer, if you build something really good, that just makes sense, that really is copacetic with the farcaster ecosystem, they could out compete you very easily by just taking the feature that you figured out through your user test and everything like that. And they could just be like, oh, that's great, we're just going to stick it in. I wouldn't say that they did that, but there was an implementation of frames that a developer, DF had created and they, no, we're not going to do this. And then boom, frames came out like a couple weeks or months later. Right. And so it's, you can't really compete with them. So I would say don't compete with them. Try to do something that you know they're not going to do because that's the only way that you can actually make it useful for you right now. Yeah, I agree. It's like OpenAI, you know, you don't want to compete with them right now, or if you do, you want to be like, adjacent to them, you know, like where your product isn't, like when they roll out a new version of chat, it benefits you and not necessarily kills you overnight. Exactly. Exactly. Let's see. So to wrap up, because I know you got to head out. Yeah. Where can people find out more about you, bcard? Where should they go? Where would you like them to? Yeah, so, I mean, getbcard IO is our website. So if you want to learn more about bcard, go there. You're also welcome to drop into our server and start asking questions. Our discord server or on Farcaster, we have a b card channel, or you can reach out directly to me at links on Farcaster as well. Awesome, man. Well, thanks again for your time. I do appreciate you kind of hopping on short notice and also answering these questions, man. I'm really excited about what you guys are working on and hopefully we can have another chat another day when you have more time. Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me. All right, man, take care. Bye. All right, welcome back. If you're listening to this message, we're at the end of the end of the episode. Before you head off this week's cast off, and again, cast off as a segment where I want to hear from you, the audience. This week's question is, what do you think about this product? You know, I tend to get a little geeked out and a little excited about new tech. Is this something that you could see yourself getting? Like if there was a board ape debit card that gave you rewards in heap? Like that's an example. Let me know what you think. There'll be a link down below where you can join the conversation for this cast off. I'll be tipping Degen. Let's do 500 for some responses. And again, if you made it to the end of this episode, thanks again for everything and for listening to this. If you are listening to this on another platform other than pods, make sure to go collect this episode at Pod pods media. If you are on pods, make sure to subscribe on your favorite podcasting app so you get notified when I drop episodes. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Make sure to leave me a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcast. Share this episode with anyone that might find this topic interesting and let me know if you'd like to hear any specific topics or specific people you'd like me to talk to or get in touch with. Make sure to get in touch with me as well. There's a link hyperlink on here where you can basically send me a quick text message. Sms rates apply. Yeah. 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